but the evidence today, we know that stewart rhodes emphatic about what happened hours.urse, they went and celebrated in the guardian afterwards on the night of january six, but also, he had a phone call by that prosecutors were playing, he talked about i wish we had brought guns, is what stewart rhodes had said there. so, that's not certainly condemnation of what happened on january 6th. that's a way to escalate, and wishing it went further, in terms of the oath keepers going inside the capitol. it's, over essentially what prosecutors are doing there, chris. >> yeah, and rhodes is in a different -- your point they're important, one he was another in the capital, which parts of what makes this seditious conspiracy prosecution notable here, right? glenn, the issue of the people who have already pleaded guilty, i mean, we don't know what role they might play in this trial, but you've already got people who are part of the conspiracy, leading to the federal kind of seditious conspiracy? >> anytime you get insiders from a criminal organization who flip to decide to plead gui

for the record, stewart rhodes says no such conversation took place on january 6th. and the january 6 committee officially announced its next and possibly last hearing for one week from today, next thursday, the 13th. a lot of the questions we have about january 6 revolve around the secret service. what exactly is going on over there? joining us now is nbc news homeland security correspondent julia anzly. julia, thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> i know you have gotten a statement this evening from the secret service in response to the claim made in court today by the oath keepers. will i'll read a part of it. the secret service says, we are aware that individuals from the oath keepers have contacted us in the past to make fors. it is not uncommon for various organizations to contact us concerning security restrictions and activities that are permissible in proximity to our protected sites. julia, that is not a denial there was contact between the oath keepers and the secret service. how do you parse that statement? >> yeah. the i would

amy: that is stewart rhodes.ll us more about him, the man who founded the oath keepers, where he is standing in this seditious conspiracy trial. he founded the group after biden 's election. he wrote an encrypted message "we are not getting through this without a civil war." >> i think it is important to understand why it is so crucial for them, basically,o maintain trump at the center of the political landscape, why they were s insistent on keeping trump in power. president trump provided them access to the political discourse. a lot of their sentiment, a lot of their our lead -- a lot of their ideas are able to penetrate the mainstre political discourse through trump and his administratio in many ways, saw ump as a platform, as a tool that allow them to gain access into the government and to enhance their legitimacy. for years, there were -- when trump was elected, finally they were able to gain access to a much large audnce, much larger public, and to gain support from some elements within the government. for

talking about stewart rhodes' presence in d.c. on december 12th. d between november and january part of the body of evidence and why does it matter? >> well, it seems like the prosecutors, nicole, are trying to set the back story from -- for the jury here. we had almost a week of testimony now with some breaks and there is actually been very little discussion of january 6th itself. it's mostly been, you know, what was the ideology of the oath keepers? what was the ideology of stewart rhodes? how angry were they in the wake of the 2020 election? it's clear from the text messages as well as open letters that rhodes sent that they were very, very angry and they were talking about the potential for blood to run in the streets. they were trying to make the appeals to trump. but it's not now pretty clear it was a duel strategy. they were trying to appeal to trump. there was a message that was read in court today, a text message that rhodes sent saying we're trying behind the scenes to get information to the president about why he should invoke the insurre

for the record, stewart rhodes's lawyer said that knows that conversation took place on january six. the january six committee has announced its next impossibly last hearing for one week from today. next thursday, the 13th. there will likely be more revelations from that as well. but boy, a lot of the questions we still have about january six seem to revolve around the secret service. what exactly is going on around there. joining us now is nbc news homeland security correspondent, julia ainsley. julia, thank you for joining us tonight. >> thanks for having me, alex. >> i know you've got in a statement this evening from the secret service and response to the claim in court today by the oath keepers. all read a part of. it the secret service says, who are aware that vigils from the oath keepers have contacted us in the past, to make inquiries. it's not uncommon for various organizations to contact that's concerning security restrictions and activities that are permissible in proximity to our protected sites. julia, it's not a denial that there was contact between the oath keepers and

stewart rhodes himself never entered the building on january 6th, but he was videoed on the capitol grounds. the doj has a recording from rhodes from four days after the attack saying his only regret is that the oath keepers should have brought, rifles, end quote on january 6th. rhodes did say publicly that he had people armed on standby to help keep trump in power. >> we have men already stationed outside d.c. as a nuclear option in case the attempt to remove the president illegally, we will step in and stop it. we're inside d.c. we'll also be outside d.c. armed prepared to go in. >> the oath keepers leader is expected to take the stand himself at some point during this trial. his lawyer told jurors earlier that the story the government is trying to tell is, quote, completely wrong. so, what does rhodes' es stranged wife think? tasha adams married stewart rhodes 25 years ago, and she joins me now. >> what do you believe his objective was? >> i believe the objective was to overthrow the u.s. government and to start as much violence as he possibly could. >> do you have -- is there any doubt

opening arguments in the seditious conspiracy trial, this man, you oath keepers founder, stewart rhodes and four other individuals with the far-right booker said to begin tomorrow, hundreds of alleged interactions are being charred village permit of justice for their violent actions on that day. but this trial is different. the members of the far-right anti government extremist oath keepers are accused of plotting, for weeks to stop the transfer of power from the failed twice impeached president who lost the 2020 election, to the winner of that election, joe biden. these charges and trial was so important that they get at the heart of what is really happening on january six, it was not a so often claimed by trump apologists that the protest got out of hand, but it was a traitorous plot carried out with the intent of overthrowing eight free and fair election in the united states of america and the d o jay has receipts. according to the justice department, rhodes wrote to his fellow oath keepers quote, we are not getting through this without a civil war, and quote, at the joe biden was de

both leave dershem including the chief, stewart rhodes, are facing a judge and jury for their part in the january 6th riot. plus, we have a meeting of the velshi banned book club. we cover highly controversial books. some have tough language. some have concern parents who may even have a point not wanting their parents know. we girls who code book series is none of that at all and this is utterly appropriate. it got swept up in a widespread ban. that is actually the real problem. hurricane ian killed at least 130 people in florida. could that number have been lower if local officials have been better prepared? most people with the local lawmakers on what went wrong. lawmakers on what went wrong. was a story arm your unborn baby. use effective birth control while on dovato. do not breastfeed while taking dovato. most common side effects are headache, nausea, diarrhea, trouble sleeping, tiredness, and anxiety. detect this: i stay undetectable with fewer medicines. ask your doctor about switching to dovato. in a recent clinical study, patients using salonpas patch reported reductions in

i couldn't hear who was on the other end of the call, but stewart rhodes was talking to someone and stewarts said it was a secret service agent. zimmerman who is retired military himself, based on the context of what i was hearing, it sounded like he was talking to a secret service agent. the other main takeaway from zimmerman's testimony which i think was atmospherically really bad for the oath keepers was that he said they attended the million maga march, the so-called million maga march in mid november of 2020, and stewart rhodes said, listen there are probably going to be antifa members, and blm members there and we know his words, they like to pray upon the week. so what i think we should do is dress up like we are vulnerable. we'll make ourselves look old. we'll carry canes, and if they tried to attack us, we will quote, give them a good beat down. >> late tonight the secret service issued a statement saying in part that, we are aware that individuals from the oath keepers have contacted us in the past to make inquiries. the statement goes on to say it is not uncommon for various orga

let me put it in infantry speak, shut the f up. >> it is doj using stewart rhodes's own words to makest him? >> absolutely. it was almost comical, because together with those statements that you just quoted the prosecutor's -- roads made in writing. he said to his fellow oath keepers delete your self incriminating comments. delete your comments that incriminate other oath keepers, and delete your comments that incriminate the organization, generally, problem is old elmer stewart rhodes didn't believe his own comments where he was instructing everybody else to get rid of the incriminating evidence. like, i'm not gonna say this a shooting fish in a barrel, but it really does feel like a strong case. >> wow. neil. i want to switch gears, and talk about the missing government documents. in a letter to the house oversight committee, the archive says it is still not sure that everything has been returned, quote, while there is no easy way to establish absolute accountability. we do not know that we do not have custody of everything we should, as appropriate, the archives would consult with

here's stewart rhodes, again, the alleged leader of the oath keepers talking about potential clashes with what they believed were antifa or possibly other cou counter protesters, if things go kinetic good, if they blow bombs up, great, that brings the president reason and rationale to invoke the insurrection act. o mission is to go into d.c. i do want some oath keepers to remain on the outside and fully armed and prepared to go in if they have to. again, later this in recording, there are other people who are also named as co-conspirators in this case, discussing what tape of weapons they could bring to washington. they said they could bring pepper spray, tasers, and they said it didn't hurt to have a metal pole with a flag on the end of it. and the department of justice is trying to build this case that the conspiracy here began very shortly after the election, and that it lasted for several weeks, and there were so many moments along the time line in which stewart rhodes was commanding his top lieutenants of the oath keepers to plan for violence within washington, victor and alisyn

zimmerman caught our attention when he testified that he believe stewart rhodes may have had a contactservice. zimmerman said he heard one side of a conversation between rhodes and someone rhodes claimed was a secret service agent in 2020 before a trump rally in fayetteville, north carolina. he said they were working through the parameter of where and how the oath keepers would operate. obviously it would be a big deal if that turned out to have been an actual secret service agent. zimmerman followed two days of testimony by the lead witness, michael pallian. he was at the capitol guarding senators and he became one of the supervising agents in the investigation. prosecutors used him to introduce recordings and text messages showing how the oath keepers planned to use violence to stop the transfer of power. >> in the last session, prosecutors showed text messages sent by thomas caldwell three days before the capitol attack. he was suggesting the idea of using boats to ferry weapons across the potomac river writing if we had someone standing by at a dock ramp, one near the pentagon for

stewart rhodes meant no harm to the capitol that day and did not have any violent intent that day.l you today is completely wrong. he calls stewart rhodes, who has a law degree, by the way, a founder of the oath keepers, he calls him a constitutional expert, extremely patriotic, and that he loves his country. of course, erin, the prosecution, the justice department says that this idea of the insurrection act was simply a cover for stewart rhodes and his allies trying to essentially stop what congress was doing, which was to certify the results of the election. >> evan, thank you very much. and i want to go now to ryan goodman, co-editor in chief and the former special counsel at the defense department. let's start with this breaking news from "the washington post" that trump personally directed one of his lawyers that everything that they had asked for had been returned. that lawyer refused to do so, saying he didn't know if it was true, and that trump himself packed up those boxes. obviously this could be very significant because all the information was not returned. we've seen th

one guy in the trial -- but generally for the organization, stewart rhodes, he of the eye patch in the yale law degree. >> so, defensive tierney's for the leader stewart rhodes, and the oath keepers members were at the capitol as part of. a peacekeeping force, waiting on president trump to invoke the insurrection act, does that make any sense? >> it makes absolutely no sense. this is probably one of the worst defenses i've ever heard, and i've heard a lot. as a prosecutor, and was a criminal defense lawyer. it defies the evidence. if you had a theory of the case, the theory of the case has to match what the evidence is gonna show. you just read that indictment, you read the text messages, that were never supposed to see the light a day, because they were all encrypted, but you've got three cooperating witnesses, all of whom are gonna confirm those text messages, and apparently there are even more that are gonna go into evidence, that show that stewart rhodes from day one, two or three days after the election was intending to perpetrate a civil war. >> i was gonna say, isn't that admiss

their defense. >> another piece of that is another one of the defendants, a key defendant of stewart rhodessentially laying out what's legal and what's not legal in terms of carrying a weapon. >> stun guns are legal. it doesn't hurt to have a lead pipe with a flag on it. >> in my mind-set, that's pretty damning, a lead pipe with a flag. >> and some had a long stick with a flag trying to push in. ke ke kelly mags has said a lot of things. as this is happening and the election is starting and you see the returns coming in, his wife and him are having a conversation. by the way, his wife is charged purks not in this particular trial. there's an exchange where he say, you know what? i'm going on a killing spree, nancy pelosi first. his wife says shut the -- up. you're getting me stressed. you hear this from him ore and over and others. it speaks to the mind-set. however, the defense in this case is saying, hold on a second, you can say a lot of things. there's a first amendment right to say something outrageous or bombastic. it doesn't mean they carried it out ar made that true. >> in the early

and certainly i think it's going to be interesting to see this tension between stewart rhodes and the other defendants because he's essentially throwing these other folks under the bus and said they went in on their own, it wasn't me. of course he celebrates that afterwards and that evening went to olive garden to celebrate the attack on the u.s. capitol. it will be interesting to see how this evidence plays out over the course of the trial which will last five or six weeks here. >> nbc's ryan reilly, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. >>> let's turn to ukraine, where we are following major breakthroughs on the front lines against russia with ukrainian forces making new advances in the southern kherson region. nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin has the latest from ukraine. >> reporter: this morning, the bodies of russian soldiers litzering the streets of the newly lib reckless endangermented town of lyman as ukrainian forces count the spoils of their victories. armored vehicles and ammunition left behind by fleeing russian troops. >> now this machine will work fo

that day, stewart rhodes was in a hotel room not far from the capital and called someone to trytalk directly to donald trump on the evening of january 6th. and encouraged the person he was speaking with, some sort of trump intermediate airy to have the president call upon the militia to take over. call upon them and they would step in. they would help stop the peaceful transfer of power. and he implored this person he wanted to speak directly with donald trump. we don't know who that person is. we think that the hint that we possibly got here as a possible puzzle piece in that scenario. because we know, of course, about roger stone's connections to the oath keepers. that's a possible overlap. we know nbc news reported that another oath keeper, kelly surrel, was in touch with andrew giuliani, the former white house aide and son of rudy giuliani in the months in november and a couple months before the january 6 attack. that number of oath keepers and also a volunteer for lawyers for trump. so there is a number of possible connections and we're trying to basically, i think, fick ou

he testified that he believes stewart rhodes may have a contact with the secret service.rsation between rhodes and someone rhodes claimed was a secret service agent. this was in september 2020, before a trump rally in north carolina. as you mentioned, this is just developing. we don't know whether the fbi tracked down who rhodes may have been talking to. that's to be continued. zimmerman followed two days of testimony by the lead witness, the fbi agent. he was at the capitol guarding senators on january 6th. he became one of the supervising agents in the oath keepers investigation. prosecutors used him to introduce recordings and text messaging showing how the oath keepers planned to use violence to stop the lawful transfer of power. prosecutors had a setback when the judge refused to allow them to introduce a so-called death list prepared by one of the defendants. prosecutors said his lawyers opened door by saying that he was mainly focused on a perceived threat from antifa. they said it showed that that was false, because this list included election workers from 2020. t

this is a stewart rhodes message to him, on november 7th, 2020, and i read it here. the news network declared joe biden the winner of the 2020 election. the oath keepers found message to a group chat that included longtime trump confidant, roger stone. this is the friends of stone. what is the plan. we need to roll, i'm on my way to d.c. right now, with my oath keepers tactical leaders for a d.c. up, to do a leaders recon and make plans. i'm available to meet face to face. you have the friends of stone, were lots of this is organized. do you think we know the full scope of roger stone's involvement on january 6th? >> we know a little bit more with, every trial, and with every bit of investigative evidence, that is surfacing. the way to think about stone is there was three people that were pardoned by the president. stone, michael flynn, and steve bannon. all three of them, acting as intermediaries, to a different extent, with the domestic violence extremist groups. of course, roger stone has made a career out of that, and the transmission belt with the highest precin

stewart rhodes, the head of the far right group oath keepers is facing charges of seditious conspiracy, along with four top lieutenants. the charges are exceedingly rare. and so is the defense we're expecting. it is controversial and untested. we will go live to the courthouse in a moment. a different controversy after former president trump attacks mitch mcconnell online with comments criticized as having racist overtones and the conservative wall street journal editorial are reckless and an invitation to violence. are other republicans willing to stand up to a leader of their own party? we have a lot to get to. >> let's begin with desperate people trapped in the aftermath of ian and ongoing search and rescue in florida. guad van a gas and dasha burns is covering this in ft. myers beach. rescue missions are into the thousands already. what are officials telling you right now that they are up against? >> reporter: chris, we got a firsthand look at exactly what they're dealing with here. what you see behind me, this bit of damage here, multiple that over and over and over again. and tha

the defendants including the group's found stewart rhodes as you see there.ge has denied a motion for a change of venue citing juror biased. joyce vance is with us, law professor at the university of alabama and an msnbc legal analyst. ryan, let me go to you first, and if you could take us inside the courtroom and what we know has taken place so far. >> that's right. actually, the doj is right in the middle of their opening arguments right now, laying out for jurors what they say is a plan here, essentially, to oppose the peaceful transfer of power. they're laying out how stewart rhodes talked with a lot of members of the oath keepers and worked with them to have guns stationed outside of d.c. in a hotel in virginia and sort of lying in wait until they were called upon under the location of the insurrection act is what stewart rhodes' lawyers are maintains. the doj is arguing that this argument about the insurrection act is just a cover story for what they actually wanted to do. in fact, they played audio of him saying just that, that this is the legal cover

he testified that he overheard a phone call between stewart rhodes and someone rhodes claimed was anorth carolina discussing what parameters oath keepers could operate under at the rally. this new revelation is another clue in the mystery surrounding both the u.s. secret service and the ex-president's connection with militia groups in the lead-up to the attack on the capitol. glen kerschner is here with us. with us at the table, mike schmid and the former director of the cia john brennan is here. he is an msnbc senior national security analyst. glen, take us inside the courtroom. >> today was a table setting day. the prosecution presented three former oath keepers. there was a common theme. all three of the individuals were members of the oath keepers organization for a relatively short period of time in the run-up to the presidential election and the aftermath, and they were disturbed by what they saw, particularly from stewart rhodes, that they left the organization. if i can tick through the witnesses quickly. >> please. >> excuse me for wearing the glasses and looking at my notes

. >> there is a lot of talk by stewart rhodes about the insurrection act invocation and he thinks itrs of antifa into attacking the oath keepers so that they could give trump an excuse to invoke the insurrection act and that was the legal cover they were giving to all of this. there was a lot of this discussion. stewart rhodes in one message apologizes for not being able to advise some of the folks who were planning this operation on january 6th until pretty late in the game because he was in communication, he said, with groups that were asking the president what to do. and another part that stuck out and fully appreciated by the jury, because it might be protected by attorney-client privilege, but it was briefly shown in court today, and it is message between stewart rhodes and kelgy cirell, she is an individual who is also charged in connection with january 6th and the general counsel for the oath keepers and in the message, stewart rhodes says this is dc rally number three. getting kind of old. they don't give a blank how then show up and wave a sign and pray or yell. they won't f

they were prepared to answer stewart rhodes' call to arm. dc and they coordinated travel to the capitol with the plan to disrupt the certification of power. elie honig is with us. i want to bring up seditious conspiracy. if two or more persons conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the government of the united states or to delay the execution of any law -- the last part is significant as well -- not in 50 years has this charge been brought into a federal courtroom. how significant is this trial among all the january 6th trials? >> yeah, john. what make this trial different than the other charges brought by doj against rioters, this involves seditious conspiracy. this is a rarely used statute and it's very serious. essentially what the prosecutors will to show is conspiracy, an agreement between two or more people, two, the use of force, and, three, not to interrupt just any proceeding but interrupt the government. that's downtowning of the electoral votes by congress. >> i want to walk through the beginning. the defense here

the government also played audio of stewart rhodes himself, heard saying his only regret is that members did not bring rifles on january 6th. the jan six house committee is also investigating the role of white right-wing militia groups during the ride itself. today, vice chair liz cheney's is saying that the -- what to tell the justice department was the work is done. >> duty is, if in the course of our investigation, it becomes clear that there is criminal activity, then we make criminal referrals. that process is one that we are discussing now. >> nbc news has learned that the next, and possibly final january 6th committee hearing is likely to be held next thursday, october 13th. with that, let's get smarter with the help of our lead off panel on this monday night, katie benner joins us, police surprise winning reporter for the new york times. sam stein, veteran journalist and white house editor for politico, and tally weinstein joins me here at 30 rock, former federal prosecutor and state prosecutor in new york. she clerked for merrick garland, and justice sandra day o'connor. katie,

what stewart rhodes said himself, we should have brought more rifles. these people are ready to go. it doesn't matt they are a tiny fraction believe this. it matters that the rest of the republican establishment doesn't care. they're silent. they will not speak out, they will not stand up. when mitch mcconnell is threatened by the former president this weekend, he cowers in fear. he doesn't stand up. they have decided that the cancer inside the party is something that they can live with long enough to seize power again. and they hope the alligator will eat the blast, if i may mix my metaphors. this is a dangerous party with a dangerous belief that power alone justifies any excuse to get there. and it does not. and is it going to be something where we pay the price as a country and a society, unless we strap up and decide we're going to push back against these people, and it's going to happen sooner than later. >> christina, gop lawmakers like lindsay graham have echoed trump's threats. take a quick listen. >> if they try to prosecute president trump for mishandling classified inform

more than that, stewart rhodes's defense here is really quite striking. huge consequences. he's essentially arguing that the insurrection act, a group of statutes that proceeds -- from the 1800s, 1700s. it essentially authorizes the president broad discretion to dispatch the militia, any militia. and stewart rhodes is basically arguing that the oath keepers is a militia group. so, this is very different than what we've seen before. typically, militias or an organized group raised by the states. that's not what he's arguing here. >> so interesting. just speaking of far-right conspiracies. last night, trump laid a seaming qanon anthem for the third rally in a row. i wonder what this increasingly overt nod to qanon tells you about where the former president and his apparatus are moving. >> i think, when you talked to republicans and folks who were in the trump camp weeks ago, when we first saw this happen, they said that is not what you heard, that's not what we are doing. the hand signals that folks put out, that's not qanon, we don't support that. but, now

the exc federal prosecutors sai stewart rhodes called an unknown person on the night of the riot to try to speak directly with then president trump investigators say stewart rhodes placed the call over speaker phone and implored the individual to tell the then president to call upon groups like the oath keepers to forcibly impose the transfer of power. unclear if there is a connection the trial set to stretch into next month. >>> it is now official the next and likely last january 6th committee hearing will be next thursday. october 13th one week from today at 1:00 eastern time the committee formally announced it today, but did not release any information on potential witnesses or what the theme will be a full recap of the hearing that night on "the news." >>> ukraine's counter offensive is growing and it's not going over well in moscow. the concern among the kremlin that has officials worried about drastic measures. >>> investigation into hunter biden. today, investigators say they have the evidence they need to level potential charges, but will prosecutors see it that way? the record

the department of justice case charting for members of the group along with its leader, stewart rhodesactions leading up to and on january six. as far as roads common defense goes, legal experts are calling it flat out dangerous. joining us now is our own experts barb mcquade. barbara, let's talk through some of this. when we talk about rhodes's legal defense here. let me read it for you from the associated press. lawyers for stewart rhodes founder of the extremist group wise to argue that jurors cannot find him guilty of seditious conspiracy because all of the actions he took before january six were in preparation for orders that he anticipated from then president trump, orders that never came. why is this a dangerous defense here? >> it could be dangerous to the national security to the extent that it suggests that the president actually has the power to evoke the insurrection act to use it against some part of our government. in this case, against the u.s. capitol. but it really isn't what the law says. so, i think this defense is likely to fail. in fact, i think the only way that s

major, you write about oath keepers founder stewart rhodes and that democracies don't dry violently but by authoritarians acting in defense of the rule of law. and i'm guessing what the argument that you're making here is that is kind of what we're seeing going on in the u.s. right now with these election deniers running and winning office. >> there are danger signs that we write about, jake. and we warn the american public about those danger signs and we say, elections in this country procedure ll now are being conducted for transparently, more verifiably and audibly than ever before. they should have a higher degree of confidence than ever before. that doesn't exist. it is dangerous. we warn strongly against it and we further warn that if those who deny election results baselessly get into positions of power, they will have influence to change election results, there by thwarting the will of the people. >> and david, you've described this book as a love letter to democracy but it is also a warning about what the future could hold as a result of people who peddle election lies, get in

elmer stewart rhodes, the oath keepers' leader and his come patriots are on trial.s played an audio recording in court of rhodes in an alleged planning meeting that discussed plans to bring weapons to washington. >> meanwhile, in other january 6th news, kelli ward, chair of the arizona republican party asserted her fifth amendment right in her deposition. this should surprise no one. joining me now, elie mystal, justice correspondent for the nation. ron johnson essentially saying these were just people demonstration how you might use a flag pole differently. no. saying that means it's not an arm insurrection. we've known from video evidence, evidence from the stewart rhodes trial, but also from the evidence played in the january 6th hearings previously that there were people with bats, people with guns, people with ar15s, rifles and pistols. this was an armed insurrection. is there any question of that? >> how much do you want to bet that ron johnson is one of the senators that we just learned about from the oath keepers trial that was crying on the day of the janua

we know that stewart rhodes was trying to get in touch with trump literally on january 6th.ll see if he was in touch with roger stone or others. >> you listen to the plans on that recording and it's hard to say we were lucky on january 6th but we were that those weapons were not brought to the capitol. you can imagine what that would have looked like. frank, you've been saying this is a crucial trial, how it's prosecuted and decided. why do you say that? >> first, the decision alone to bring conspiracy for sedition charges is a big one, and it goes toward whether or not we can successfully suppress attempts to overthrow our government. a loss here hurts than gymnastics. it signals we may not have the tools in our tool kit to suppress future attempts to violently stop the government. >> aftershocks from january 6th, in politics and law enforcement. you wrote about an fbi agent who was suspended because he refused to participate in the arrest of a january 6th suspect. tell us about that and what that means writ large. we know there were some law enforcement officers who were v

because it is coming out of the mouth, prosecutors say, of stewart rhodes himself.bers of the oath keepers who are charged here with the most serious charge in the january 6th cases that we have yet seen, which is seditious conspiracy. that is one of several charges. but that one is the most serious. and if they're convicted they could go to prison for up to 20 years. so let's get into what we heard and what the jury heard in court today. they heard some of these secretly recorded audio of prosecutors say stewart rhodes talking to his group. they had a meeting in november, as you mentioned, of 2020 around the time of the election. and here are some of the things that were said about what was happening in washington. one of the things said "my only regret is that they should have brought rifles. we should have fixed it right then and there. if he's not going to do the right thing, he's just going to let himself be removed illegally." that is rhodes allegedly talking about president donald trump at the time. but we heard more audio. the prosecutors played some of this

stewart rhodes, who is he in the world of militias? in the world of extremism? what is it that he would say that he believes he could be an extension of law enforcement? >> so, mike giglios wrote a lot about this. he's probably the most prominent militia leader in the country. he was in the military, injured nd a parachute jump then went to yale law school. been very aggressive in trying to play roles on defense. he wants to take the stand here. his dream, according to defense lawyers, is to somehow turn this oath keepers trial into the right wing equivalent of a chicago seven. he thinks he can sway american public opinion to support what he did on january 6th. i think that's going to be a real stretch. one specific thing in the insurrection act, there's a recording of him that prosecutors have talked about where he says in a separate meeting, we're going to say we're there waiting on the insurrection act. that's our official position and we need that because it's legal cover and prosecutors will use that to say you know, again, this is all just a ruse to carry

whom is probably the most high profile, which is the founder and leader of the oath keepers, stewart rhodes. each of the attorneys has the opportunity to also present their case, which is why this is going to take up to six weeks. and each of them had a little bit different things to say about their clients and their clients' role. ultimately you had someone coming up and saying, look, they were there as peacekeepers, that was rhodes' attorney. he said they were waiting for the president to invoke the insurrection act and they were there to basically hold the peace. but the problem is the insurrection act was never enacted. they're going to have to explain all of that to a jury. they also said they're going to prove this was not a plan to disrupt the government. they say, look, our clients may have gone inside of the capitol, some of them stayed outside, but then you had an attorney who tried to break apart the fbi's initial case in which they said his client, mr. caldwell, thomas caldwell, was the mastermind at the very beginning and changed their mind to say, oh, actually it was stewart r

stewart rhodes was previously represented that he was in a relationship with ms., and it turns out that was definitely a sexual relationship based on so the texts that were revealed in court earlier today so another complicating factor here and the thing i think we're all waiting for perhaps later this week is the testimony from some of the cooperating witnesses who are going along with, or who are cooperating with the government, cooperating with the fbi and should offer their take on where this case will go next. but this case is moving along, and we could see another two weeks potentially, with testimony coming just from the government side of this hearing. >> and what is the defense saying? what's their pushback on this? >> they're saying that this isn't as serious as the government has made it out to be and there is no intent of bringing the guns in to take over the capitol. so the defense is sort of focused on the idea that there is no evidence, not a ton of evidence thus far that this was actually about going into the u.s. capitol on january 6th. what the g

was reporting that stewart rhodes' lawyers would start arguing that donald trump was i guess essentiallyes, donald trump is really looming over this entire trial. and essentially what stuart rhodes's will argue is that all of this he believed was legal because he was awaiting an order from donald trump to take action. we will talk about an order about this alleged call on january 6th in which stewart rhodes was trying to reach donald trump directly and had a donald trump intermediary. and from the government today, they revealed this new audio, you can see a lot of text messages from the oath keepers but they trotted out this new audio a few days after january 6th and sort of debunks a lot of what the defense is trying to roll out because on that audio stape, he said his own regret they didn't bring rifles and indied the government says rifles were stationed outside of the district of columbia. in virginia. at a low tell there. and ready for ak. a quick reaction force, ready in case donald trump called upon them and invoked the in recollection act and under their believe coo believed it

but honestly that audio sort of shatters all that, because it indicates that stewart rhodes wished theygal, which would be bringing guns to the capitol and taking care of the problem right now. so, it sort of set it apart, regardless of whether or not donald trump called upon them, he was going to take action and that's essentially the government's argument. right now on the stand, you've got an fbi special agent who's testifying, who actually went and met up with senators the night of january 6th and there was apparently 70 fbi special agents accompanying about 85 senators from that secret location. they escorted them all. that's something we haven't seen video of. you had almost a one-to-one, man-to-man defense on january 6th. he said senators were crying. he actually saw senators crying that night in that secret location. they brought them back to the senate. he said that the senate at the time looked like a bomb had went off inside there because -- and if you took off your gas mask, you would be hit with pepper spray, there were windows all over the place, so pretty compelling testi

then the defense got up, the attorney for stewart rhodes, who is the founder of the oath keepers, andnd said, look, this is perhaps themost important jury trial in modern-day history or at least the most anticipated as he put it in his words. he said, look, you're going to hear all these things. don't be fwoold i that. we have the real story. by and large you have toness that our clients took no part in the bulk of the violence that day on january 6. mind you, you heard some of them say, we're in the effing ca capitol. it's going to be an interesting case. i will tell you this. when the defense cameforward -- and this is the first of several attorneys who will be speaking in defense of the five cleenlts, they were objected to several times by the prosecution, interrupted for what they were saying and the judge sustained it. he said, the jury needs to ignore what was said by the prosecution because of some of the details they had agreed not to talk about. t . the judge brought them up to the bench to talk about some issues. he made it clear they could not go down this road and warned i

. >> -- >> but generally for the organization, stewart rhodes. he is the eye patch and the yale law degree. >> so defense attorneys for the leader stewart rhodes said that both members were at the capitol as part of a peacekeeping force. leaning on trump to invoke the insurrection act. does that make any sense? >> it makes absolutely no sense. this is probably one of the worst defenses i have ever heard. and i have heard a lot. as a prosecutor, and as a criminal defense lawyer. it defies the evidence. if you have a theory of the case, the theory of the case has to match what the evidence is going to show. you just read that indictment, you read the text messages, that were never supposed to see the light of day because they were all encrypted. you have got three who operating witnesses, all of whom are going to come from those text messages and apparently there are even more they're going to go into evidence that show that stupid roads, from day 12 or three days after the election was intending to perpetrate a civil war. >> i was going to, say is

today, the prosecutor -- stewart rhodes in which he seems to promote the use of force and begs trump to invoke the insurrection act after the 2020 election. jurors were also shown this speech from a pro trump rally, just a few weeks before the capitol riot. >> show the world to the traders are and then, use the insurrection act to drop the hammer on them. and all of those veterans, just for that oath, until your age 65, you can be called them as the militia to support in the constitution. he needs to know that you are with, him he is commander-in-chief, we will have to do it ourselves later at a much more desperate, much more bloody war. let's get it all now, while he is still the commander in chief. >> there's also the ongoing investigation into possible interference in georgia's 2020 election. the district attorney fani willis reportedly once former house speaker mute gingrich and ex trump national security adviser michael flynn to testify before a grand jury. you may recall that before trump left office, he pardoned flynn fruit, twice pleaded guilty to the fbi. the guy currently,

but the prosecutors have a ton of evidence here, fred, that stewart rhodes and the oath keepers agreedernment or attacking it by force. >> i want to turn to something else. we're talking two months after the fbi search of mar-a-lago. they say they are still missing records from the trump administration and in a letter archives officials say some white house staff used my private electronic messaging. how serious might this be? >> fred, i think it's serious. when i worked in the obama white house, these rules on document preservation were part of my portfolio, and i explained to everybody from the president and the then vice president on down, look, if you don't follow the rules and use official government email for all of your communications, you can get in civil or even criminal trouble. we already see the former president, who is under criminal investigation for mishandling government records, and he may not be the last one to come under investigation. >> all right. we'll leave it there for now. norm eisen, good to see you. thanks so much. >> thanks, fred. >>> still to come, inside t

it shows that a law yale degree, which is something that stewart rhodes has, does not prevent you from from some pretty serious delusions. they were convinced that trump lost the election and the country was in peril if joe biden took power. >> they were stockpiling weapons at hotels across the river in case it came to a civil war. let me ask you, ken, about the motion filed by former president trump and his legal team against the 11th circuit court that said the justice department was okay to go back and go through these documents in its investigation, the ones seized from mar-a-lago. is this going anywhere for president trump? >> reporter: what's so interesting, willie, the circuit justice who gets to hear this first is clarence thomas. in theory clarence thomas -- more than in theory. in actual fact clarence thomas could act on his own and grant this stay which is what the trump team is asking, that the special master be allowed to review the 100 classified documents to see if any of them are privileged. if thomas did that, it would be one of the most brazen acts in judicial history

jurors also saw oath keeper founder stewart rhodes receipts. as he made his way from texas with his attorney, kelly siral and drove to d.c. what you saw are receipts showing thousands and thousands of dollars spent on arms accessories, spent on things like scopes and sights and all different kinds of magazines as well as prosecutors argued a couple firearms. in total, more than 175,000 dollars had been withdrawn or debited from two oath keeper accounts in just the month of january alone, and prosecutors are basically trying to prove, john, thatted oath keepers were building an arsenal in preparation to stop the peaceful transfer of power. however, there is always another side to this, of course. you have the defense saying, look. the oath keepers have long maintained that they never brought the guns into d.c. that they never used those weapons they had stashed in virginia. and then in every rally they have ever gone to always had a quick reaction force available to them to assist in what they called "peacekeeping activities." john? >> all right