mark jacobson is the assistant dean at syracuse university maxwell school. he says it's not yet clear how rumsfeld viewed his own actions and legacy. i think the challenge is that the, the donald rumsfeld, we see and have seen as the donald rumsfeld, he wanted us to see, he created that narrative. and until we can dig more deeply into his records and have those camden conversations, we won't know whether he was remorseful, let's say in the way that a robert mcnamara was, even if an successfully over the vietnam war, where the rom, so went more deeply. i could even be that room so was not as contract as, as someone like mcnamara and had no regrets. and i think to some degree that that's the rumsfeld we've actually seen for the most part. but again, i think the story has yet to be told. i think this is a complicated man and again, now i'm not sure in the end how contrite how he was, but there is no doubt that is supported the veterans. once he left, the office of the secretary of defense was purposeful, was strong, and in reflected his own patriotism. russia h

he's an assistant dean at syracuse university maxwell's school and served at the pentagon during both the obama and bush administrations join me via skype from boynton beach in florida. mr. jacobson. good to have you on the program again. like many seen for paul. hey it's great to see like many season politicians and diplomats a very rich professional past peppered with success and failure and also regret i mean, where do you begin with donald rumsfeld when thinking about him? i think most folks forget that he was secretary of defense twice, not consecutively, of course, the 1st time during the ford administration. but even before that, he had been a congressman from illinois, the us and bastard to nato. busy the chief of staff at the white house and in the wake of the nixon scandal, and then president for and placed him at the pentagon. but when he gets to 2001 i should say, then he has a story public or private sector career as well. and then he comes to the pentagon in 2001. we have $911.00 and he goes on to make some incredibly poor mistakes just for choices. big mistakes, pantano

we're joining us now to discuss our boom mosca has been swan and bill hunterman of the syracuse university maxwell school and former advisor to the us secretary of energy band. let's start with you here. now, as you might imagine, ukraine is very angry about this agreement because they demanded formal talks with brussels and berlin on the pipeline. but they didn't get those talks. why is that? why there's a couple of reasons for the biggest is that, remember all the talk that's being kind of laid out there right now. we heard some of those sound bites a minute ago, right. the president saying, well, we've got a whole lot that we can do and, and there seems to be a lot of ringing of hands of this. but there are really 2 most important players in this, russia and germany, russia once the pipeline and germany wants the pipeline. and so when germany is essentially agreed to was, yes, we will find an agreement and we will punish russia if they harm ukraine, and they try to use the energy to, to make ukraine's life more difficult. but what are you that the ukrainians are really upset about? what they're upset

university of london. and in syracuse we cross glenn morgan, he is a professor in the political science department at maxwell school at syracuse university. alright, gentle.

university of london and in syracuse, we cross glen morgan. he is a professor in the political science department at maxwell school at syracuse university. alright, gentlemen, cross for girls and effects. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always let me go to alan 1st. in london, the slovenia prime minister recently condemned the eas western states for imposing, quote, imaginary european values without respecting local cultures. how do you react to that? because we had a letter come out with 16 major figures representing parties all across the, the block, very agitated and pushing back against what they think is brussel brussels intruding upon their local affairs. how do you react to what the full vini and prime minister had to say? well, it doesn't cause any surprise, because there's a great divide in europe, in your opinion, just matters of culture, particularly. ready all gay culture base, other things, catholic culture, the legal protection of the catholic church cohen. ready does who writes of family rights and po. ready and discriminatory legislation hungry against gay and lesbian people. and this is creating a cleavag