i just wanted to -- >> i don't really disagree with judge tatel at all. what he really said is cases that aren't terribly important, you don't have a dissent. and as he said, most of their cases are administrative law cases, which don't generally have any great principles involved. [laughter] >> i'm not as familiar with the seventh circuit but i do know -- i've read judge tatel's opinions and dissents, on important issues, when they have to do with national security, when they have to do with guantanamo. you know, the important issues i don't have any question. that you can see the differences on the dc circuit from their opinions. when i talked about the culture, the extreme -- the example of the other side is really the second circuit. it always has been. the second circuit never goes en banc. maybe once a year in a bad year. we go en banc frequently. there's a much greater desire and i understand judge wilkinson's view about view of stability in the law. i think it is important. in certain kinds of cases, when you're giving guidance to businesses about

. >> unless someone else wants to weigh in on this, i want to get back to something that judge tatel and then we've got some questions and we need to save time for questions. but your question about the deficiency of advocacy in the labor and employment area i found quite interesting. and i wonder -- i know that the immigration-heavy circuits feel this in terms of immigration advocacy very keenly. i wonder if there's anything that the circuits can do, ought to do, outreach, education, working with the bar, what can be done to ameliorate that? >> the trigger largely by the immigration cases in which the advocacy on both sides is extremely poor. or has been at times. it began generating ourselves a series of training programs and advocacy and attempted to get immigration practitioners in particular to come. and the problem is that it somewhat petered out because the amount of judge time was very heavy. they were good and people liked them but trying to get seven or eight judges to do this a couple times a year has proven different and how many people are you really influencing? i would