first to some of the questions judge tatel uber asking with respect to interchange fees.the court found that the language of section 9-20 is so clear that under chevron step one it is impossible to read the language of section 9-20 two including -- to inclusede the four categories of costs. that is incorrect, section 9-20 contains one mandate that governs primary conduct, it is included in a-2 and a-3, it mandates that interchange fees "shall be reasonable and proportional to the costs incurred by the issuer with respect to the transaction." there is no way that that language can be read to exclude the four costs at issue in this case. we think -- our position is that there is no way that that language can be read to exclude any of those costs. and for that matter, some other costs the board did not include. >> related to specific transaction -- the costs have to be related to a specific transaction. >> yes. >> these four categories -- >> we think they do that that standard. i will tick through. network charges, the amount the issuer has to pay the network in order to eng