so that is who taveras is. and cnn has spoken with sources and they're telling us that it was the information coming from taveras that led to these additional allegations against the former president. his aide walt nauta and as well as carlos de oliveira. back to you. >> interesting. randi kaye, thank you. >>> and in another investigation into president trump is in its final stages. in georgia, the fulton county district attorney fannie willis is expected to announce the findings from her investigation in the state. sara murray is in atlanta for us. over the weekend, we heard from the district attorney. what did she say? >> reporter: that is right, our affiliate caught up with her at a back-to-school event over the weekend and she was praising the local sheriff for beginning to take steps to increase the security around the courthouse. she made it clear that some people may not be pleased when she does make her charging decision over the next couple of weeks but her investigation is ready to go. take a listen.

new information in it, taveras has not been charged. taveras has changed lawyers to lawyer that is not being paid by trump's super pac, by my understanding. i'm just trying to connect dots here. i know you're saying that we don't have specific information of cooperation, but doesn't this seem to look like he may be cooperating? >> yeah, that is what you expect to play out for someone who is cooperating, because he doesn't get charged in the superseding indictment, where there is an opportunity, i mean, they were char charging de oliveira, using the name employee number four. they're not going to identify someone who they're not going to charge with a crime and they don't call this person a co-conspirator or an unindicted co-conspirator, they're choosing to name him as an employee, so that would signal that he's unlikely to be charged. but with all of this, we don't know until it happens. >> and david schoen, last week on friday, who is trump's second lawyer in the impeachment hearing said so much rest on the credibility of employee numb

taveras. that appears to be cooperating with the government. need his own counsel who is not also representing one of the current defendants. >> charles, could a third defendant delay this may 2024 documents trial? do you think that they may be broken up in some sort of way, these cases so they can go forward on different timelines. >> charles, i don't see the third defendant in the superseding indictment delaying it further primarily because most of the delay is going to considerably revolve around the notion of discovery. any discovery issues that are bound to occur because of the sensitive nature of the documents be third witness here, the third defendant here doesn't have much to do with that. i don't anticipate there will be a new delay on his docket. with respect to the question of bifurcation, that could delay the overall trial if one of the defendants were to move in that respect. because jack smith has brought the case as codefendants they would have to offer a pretty compelling reason to split them off. if they felt there was going to

now, taveras' attorney declined to comment to cnn. but it's just another example of how relatively low level employees at mar-a-lago have been caught up in this because the former president has relied on them, right, in an effort to get around his lawyers, who may have steered him another way. >> do we know if he could be charged? he's clearly already, i assume he's already talked to the special counsel, which is why he's so -- why he's been mentioned as that eyewitness in the superseding indictment. >> yeah, pretty much everyone who's worked at mar-a-lago, again, from the grounds keeper all the way up to the head of security for the trump organization, has spoken with the special counsel. but so far it doesn't appear that taveras has exposed himself criminally in any way, although his colleague carlos de oliveira, he opened himself up to criminal liability by allegedly being dishonest with the fbi. anderson, we know smart, accomplished people from martha stewart to general petraeus have opened themselves up to criminal vulnerability

worker from mar-a-lago named yuscil taveras. what we understand from sources is that he was working with prosecutors, speaking with the fbi, and the investigators and apparently some of these new allegations against donald trump were based at least in part, phil, from some of this information, coming from yuscil taveras, this i.t. worker. so now, a fourth employee identified and all in this alleged plot to try to get ready of this security camera footage. phil? >> all right, randi kaye, thank you. >>> well, also this morning, the georgia probe investigating efforts by donald trump and his allies to overturn georgia's 2020 presidential election result, that could be nearing its end. fulton county district attorney fani willis telling wxia that any announcement of an indictment would happen before september 1st. >> some people may not be happy with the decisions that i'm making and sometimes when people are unhappy, they act in way that could create harm. the work is accomplished. we've been working for two and a half years. we're

worker, yuscil taveras, has received a target letter from federal prosecutors. taveras reportedly met with investigators after trump's first indictment in june. it's unclear if he's cooperating with the investigation, but sources say that some of the new allegations against trump were based at least in part on information taveras provided. trump facing additional charges for mishandling classified documents, maintained his innocence on social media. claiming his legal team voluntarily handed over the tapes to the special counsel. and that he never told anybody to delete them. de oliveira is separately charged with lying to the fbi about moving boxes of documents from trump's residence to a storage room. >> this is bad stuff. and, you know, you can't say there was no underlying potential crime here. >> the superseding indictment giving trump's opponents an opportunity to go after the front-runner.brazen. these guys were acting like the cor kor leones with no experience. >> reporter: other candidates treading more cautiously over the indictment as trump remains po

worker known as employee number four whose name we have learned is usyuscil taveras. these charges are stemming from what taveras has told investigators and the fbi. we know that he has not been charged with anything, but that the person that de oliveira has met in the audio closet to discuss the security footage, sara. >> is this going to be an arrangement or just an appearance in court? >> as of now, we know that he is going to be appearing in court. whether or not the arraignment happens is still in question. he would need a florida-barred attorney, or florida-based attorney to enter a plea, a right now, there is not a florida attorney on the docket, and we know that he is going to be here with the washington, d.c.-based attorney, and if he shows here with a florida-arranged attorney, and that could indicate when the mar-a-lago case is going to be tried, and people want to know if it is going to happen before the court, sara. >> thank you. and you are looking very cool before the heat. >> and elie honig is joining us and now, what we have learned over the weekend i

than we were able to do. >> we know that walt nauta and employee number 4 is reported to be yuscil taverasa-lago, they're being represented by woodward, woodward is being paid by trump 's pack, there's a curious dynamic here, which is yuscil taveras is clearly, if he is employee number 4, giving a lot of information to the doj, maybe even a cooperating witness. walt nauta, represented by the same lawyer, is not a cooperating witness. does that strike you as an odd arrangement and potentially problematic? >> it causes anxiety. it is not necessarily improper for someone to help or assist with payment of council if they are an employer, per se, is not illegal or improper. but the concern is is that this is being used as a tool to keep a witness under control, to keep them from being fully candid with the department of justice. i can't say that that is what is happening here, we don't know that, but it does raise a concern and really i guess some of it is, stemming from the testimony that miss hutchinson gave us, because clearly that was the pattern they were using with her, and it didn't work

worker by the name of taveras.understand that he was the person who carlos de oliveira was speaking with when asking about how to delete the video from the server. sources telling cnn that some of the new allegations against trump and his aide walt nauta as well as carlos de oliveira are coming from information at least in part that this i.t. worker had given during a conversation with the fbi. we can tell you, though, that taveras has not been charged and it's unclear how much he is cooperating but apparently some of that information is coming from him. >> can you give us some sense of what might happen this morning with de oliveira? >> reporter: de oliveira is going to be appearing in court with his attorney that we know of right now who is john irving, he is a washington, d.c.-based attorney. it's unclear if he's actually going to be arraigned or just going to make an appearance because he does need a florida-barred lawyer to have his full arraignment. if he doesn't have a florida lawyer, it doesn't appear that

director, two people close to the investigation tell cnn his name is taveras, trump employee number four in that indictment. trump is also facing an additional charge for willfully retaining a top secret document about military attack plans for iran. cnn's paula reid joins me now. two categories in effect in these new charges in the classified documents indictment. tell us about the obstruction one, about deleting potential evidence here. >> that's right. all of the new legal problems in this new superseding indictment, of all of them, the biggest one is the fact they were trying to obstruct their own obstruction. here the former president allegedly applying pressure to relatively low level employees to try to destroy surveillance footage, which is at the heart, jim, of the prosecution's case. and now he has a new co-defendant, carlos de oliveira, and the prosecutors were going to continue to try to get him and walt nauta to flip. so far they have not been successful, why both men have been charged. also, though, in this indictment, of course, the former president is charged with illegal

released yesterday, trump employee number 4 has been identified by certain news outlets as yuscil taveras, the i. t. director at mar-a-lago. interestingly enough, the release latest reporting indicates that was taveras at one point being represented by the same attorney who represents walt nauta and who is being paid by trump's save america pack. we're gonna ask the former united states attorney harry litman about the potential conflict events interest that would appear to raise. but before that i want to drill down on one other area of the indictment. according to the indictment, in the weeks after the fbi searched donald trump's florida residents and found more than 100 documents marked classified, there were, apparently, concerns over whether carlos de oliveira was truly on team trump. quote, on august 26, 2022, walt nauta called trump employee 5 and inwards to the effect of, someone just wants to make sure carlos is good. in response, trump employee 5 told nauta that de oliveira was loyal and that de oliveira would not do anything to affect his relationship with trump. that same day a

there is now a fourth employee that cnn has identified as yuscil taveras, and a lot of the allegationse about because he is an i.t. worker at mar-a-lago, and this is the man apparently allegedly according to the indictment. and sources tell cnn, it is his statements that led to the indictments of donald trump, walt nauta and carlos de oliveira. >> i said that it led to the indictment, but it is the allegation that trump said that the server should be deleted. it is interesting that he is given a list of the witnesses that he cannot talk to. and interesting that he is going back to wosrk >> that is an interesting point that you made and glad you thought but one note that i pebd of those they ke and he said that the former president and walt nauta were not on that list. >> so walt nauta and president trump are on the list of people that he cannot talk to. >> they were not on the list of what the government gave that he could not speak to. whether or not there is an add there. sara? >>> and now, there is an effort to overturn the 2020 election in georgia, and the judge looked at a request

taveras, were deeply engaged in trying to hide these documents. so it's one of the explanations for certainly why we're just getting the superseding indictment now. and it's also not a surprise then that we're seeing this very explicit nature of this statement about donald trump paying the legal fees for people who otherwise might have a lot more incentive to flip if they were hanging out there by himself, themselves. it's the way of his pac to provide incentive for them not to do that. i would argue that's perhaps not in the best personal interests, given the evidence that suggests that we're going to see. nonetheless, that seems to also be something that leans in favor of trying to put more pressure on them to do what might be in their best legal interests. >> buying people's silence is definitively, i think, a trump m.o., one we've seen before. we have a superseding indictment filed. what can we expect during de oliveira's arraignment on monday? >> he'll plead not guilty, he'll have a lawyer paid for by donald trump, then the pressure will begi

taveras was represented by nauta's attorney who withdrew and once taveras got his own lawyer, i guess he found jesus, he sat down with the investigators and said this is what i want to tell you. we'll see who ends up coming in as local counsel for de oliveira. >> thank you so much for being with us today. garrett haake, of course, and devin. and glenn kirschner. thanks to all. and ready to go. the fulton county d.a. in georgia saying her investigation into the 2020 election interference, the alleged interference, is nearly complete. what it means for the former president coming up next. that and a lot more when andrea mitchell returns in just 60 seconds. only on msnbc. only on msnbc. 60 seconds. only on msnbc. >> been working for two and a half years. we're ready to go. r two d ana half years we're ready to go. (♪♪) astepro allergy, steroid free allergy relief that starts working in 30 minutes, while other allergy sprays take hours. with astepro's unbeatably fast allergy relief you can astepro and go! >>> in georgia, security's been increased in the courthouse workers are being told t

yuscil taveras went a different way. do you think though this could be the start of a trend? >> i think so. it reminds me a little bit of what cassidy hutchinson did during the january 6th hearing. tavares had certain testimony he gave. maybe it was incomplete. once in this case he got a target letter, that's the difference between the two situations. but he got a target letter, changed his mind and decide that he had more to offer. and obviously he is not a criminal defendant. the other two gentlemen are. i think the whole purpose here from jack smith's purpose or one of the purposes is specifically to get either of the two men that are charged with trump to change their mind in the way tavares did, to get them to potentially flip against trump. i think that's certainly part of the calculus here. and by the way, there is a big difference between having one low-level person charged with trump and two. because now each of those two men, walt nauta, de oliveira, they essentially have to be thinking about is the other guy going to potentially change and flip first? is that other

how else would they have gotten them but from taveras or de oliveira. and he wouldn't have been contributing evidence to the indictment against himself. >> what i'm hearing is this is making people nervous, people that work at mar-a-lago or work in the former president's inner circle are asking questions about who else could be talking and what they're saying. >> absolutely. that would make the entire staff quite nervous at this point. i think it's really interesting to see at this point with these -- with him being added as a codefendant here, a lot of people are wondering where that's going to increase the pressure on him in order to plead guilty or cut a deal now. i don't think so. it's too late in the day for that. the time they would have done that is much earlier. they're quite committed to this core, so that's not happening. >> that's a question this has raised. the other thing we learned today is about that document. that was the other revelation is that he was now charged with a document at the center of that aud i audio tape. it's iran attack

taveras, that when he is going to now testify against will nauta, against donald trump, his codefendantsibly be represented by a lawyer who is working in tandem with donald trump's lawyers. so he had to get a new lawyer. and i am quite sure that his legal fees will no longer be paid by donald trump. >> catherine, i want to come back to you on another big legal development this past week. the u.s. attorney in delaware has been investigating hunter biden, the son of the president. this has been wide ranging, but the deal came down to two tax charges and a diversion agreement related to a gun charge. what happened in that courtroom this week that made the judge hit the brakes? >> i was inside that courtroom, margaret, just sitting about 20 feet behind hunter biden during that three-hour hearing. the simple explanation is that the federal judge is always handling plea agreements. they're very familiar documents to her. when this one hit her desk, she said hold on a minute, this is not a standard agreement, these are different terms than what i'm used to. when she pulled that thread, what she

there's been a conversation between the gentleman de oliveira broad before the court today and taverasing i don't have the authority to do that, and he's not charged. so that gives a sense to me that lease providing information to the government which corroborates this indictment and who can be a powerful with the tons flip against trump. don't know that for a fact but what it means to me as a defense attorney if you have information like that and the person who is not embroiled in the indictment. they must be on team usa, that means cooperating with the government. >> i'm sure we'll learn more as this plays out. obviously as you know, there are multiple investigations. lots of legal proceedings happening in various jurisdictions around the country, the trump orbit. in georgia, fulton count d.a. fani willis said they're ready to go. in your experience, is that the type of activity and comments common with a high-profile indictment, or are we jumping the gun here? >> it appears to be, and, omar, we don't know what we don't know. but what we know, the grand jury, you gave the information

he allegedly spoke with "trump employee 4" which we now know to be yusuf taveras, the director of securityr trying to delete the security footage showing the boxes moved. we'll get back to that. i want to focus on something else we learned from the superseding indictment about the top secret iran memo that trump is heard on tape showing of off during a july 21st meeting at his new jersey golf club. >> except it is, like, highly confidential. >> yeah. >> this is secret information. look at this. and he said, he wanted to attack iran and what -- these are the papers. >> you did. >> this is done by the military and given to me. i think we can probably -- right? >> i don't know, we'll have to see, yeah. we'll have to try to -- >> declassify it. >> yeah. >> as president i could have declassified it. now i can't. >> yeah. >> isn't that interesting? this is so cool. >> not only does donald trump confirm in that audiotape that he did not declassify the document like he has repeatedly claimed he did, he also confirmed that no one in that room had security clearance. of course, trump has denied he a

describe him as having a conven with a trump employee identified as trumploy four, identified as yuscii taveras oliveira insisted on getting this surveillance video video deleted. he said what are we going to do about it? the issue with tavaeras is he formed a key part of this superseding indictment. we know he was sent a target letter by prosecutors after the first indictment of the former president, and we know, wolf, he provided information that was used in this description of these allegations against de oliveira and against the former president. so the question is was he -- is he cooperating. we don't know if we could call him a cooperator. we do know he spoke to the fbi, to prosecutors after that initial indictment. >> more dramatic developments unfolding. evan, stay with us. we'll get back to you in a moment or so. >>> in georgia a judge rejected trump's latest bid to halt the investigation of 2020 presidential election interference in that state. cnn's sara murray is joining us from atlanta. sara, the georgia investigation is moving for washed tonward /* forward tonight. trump's team go

told taveras that he want, that trump, the boss, wanted the server deleted.yee four responded he would not know how to do that and did not believe he would have the rights to do that. employee four told him that he would have to reach out to another employee who's a supervisor of security for trump's business operation. organization. he then insisted to trump employee four that the boss wanted the server deleted and asked what are we going to do. we now know, lisa, that this trump employee four, tavares, he got a target letter. he previously got a target letter in the classified documents probe. does that tell you all of these low level employees are being interviewed by the fbi and they have a choice as glenn just said. be a witness to the government but you're about to get indicted. >> you know, we don't have formal proof that tavares is officially a signed up cooperator or that he made a deal with prosecutors but joy, it looks like that's what happened. we know he went in, spoke to the grand jury in may. then trump and nauta were indicted. for him, that se

if you were a prosecutor in this case, would these guys, nauta, de oliveira, this other guy, taveras,ned is trump employee number four, i believe, would they fit the profile of the type of witnesses who you would be looking for to cooperate in your case? >> well, normally, you would. but these people have a big incentive not to cooperate. first of all, they are working for donald trump, and he is paying their salary right now. secondly, he is paying their lawyers bills. so, they have an incentive to hang on. ve t but they are facing serious, serious jail time here, and the charges are very simple, and very clear, involved against carlos de oliveira, it involves lying to the fbi. the other one, against both of them, removing boxes and concealing information. so, that is on tape, so, going back to the nixon times, that's on tape -- so, it's very hard for them to avoid conviction in my opinion. but whether they'll ultimately turn, i don't know. >> catherine, i wish everybody read the indictment, because you can see the language in there, you can see the transcripts of the recording. carl

doesn't care what happens to him or his family, taveras, or nauta.a guy i've told on many different shows run. he's a guy in former military, put on your shoes and start running because the faster you -- it's a little late for that now. he's already a codefendant now. remember how exercised donald trump was about hillary clinton's server and when he thought she was wiping information off her computer server. let's remind everybody he talked about it is a lot. here it is. >> she setup this illegal server knowing full well that her actions put our national security at risk and put the safety and security of your children at risk. there has never been anything like this where e-mails and you get a subpoena, you get a subpoena and after getting the subpoena you delete 33,000 e-mails. and then you ask to wash them or bleach them. >> he's now charged with doing that very thing. what are voters to make of this? >> so this is a big problem. first of all, we're talking about the same bleach that he wanted to stick into your lungs in order to get rid of covid.

the very fact they conspired to do it and the tempted to persuade taveras to do, it that is within itselfute a federal crime any serious, one aaron. >> that being said, the fact that trump's lawyers argument is that the tapes were not ultimately deleted is adding and evil -- is not even an irrelevant defense? >> no, it's not irrelevant defense. i should know the person making that defense right now, alina have a, she has been a lawyer to the former president but she is not a lawyer involved in these proceedings. for purposes of this case, she is a trump affiliated lawyer who is doing legal affiliated pr. she's not involved in the defense of this case. you will not see todd blanche or john -- , for example, who are the lawyers defending trump against this case, todd blanche or chris -- who are involved in this case, you won't see them on tv advancing this defense because i don't think it is a defense in court. >> the superseding indictment lays out a timeline showing when the draft subpoena went out and then trump calling carlos de oliveira and then the final subpoena going out and not get

taveras, the i.t. director, about who the boss was. i think more likely the issue for jack smith's team, and this is what trial attorneys have to worry about, is there were two parties to this conversation. it seems unlikely that this conversation was recorded. and it appears the jack smith's team tried very hard to get mr. dale liver us to cooperate as well. because they had him testify about the statement that the boss wants these tapes deleted, they would have loved to have had the other party to that conversation also confirming that. but he apparently refused to cooperate and that's why he ended up indicted. and what that means, is that all of this evidence rests now on mr. tavares. he has to be available to testify at trial. although i'm sure jack smith's team locked his testimony in the grand jury under oath, that is not admissible in trial, because the defense has the possibility to cross examine the witness. and that wasn't a possibility. so that's why jacks mitt's team wants to get this case to trial as soon as possible. >> y

carl, cnn is learning that yuscil taveras is the name of the i.t. worker at mar-a-lago who oversaw the surveillance footage on the property. special counsel says he was asked by another trump employee to erase footage from a server. he has this language that the boss wants it to happen. does an attempt or a discussion of destroying evidence. is that evidence enough of a crime? or do you actually have to manage to do it? >> certainly this looks like it's part of a conspiracy. this new indictment goes to a greater level of detail showing the lengths that trump and his employees were going to. in particular, if you look at the time frames that are shown there, it shows that on june 2nd, attorney number one was going to review the boxes of documents. and we have evidence now that the tape shows that 64 boxes were actually moved prior to then. only 30 boxes were returned on june 2nd for that attorney to review. the next day, the fbi came to review the documents that were collected by attorney number one. and when they were doing this collection and they

taveras, and who himself then refused to tinker with or alter or destroy the servers on which the surveillance tapes were. so, in addition to the conversation, and what, you know, this conversation like the boss wants this done, we also have that timeline, right, that very, very suspicious timeline that shows knowledge of the government wanted it and efforts to destroy it. >> ken dilanian, vaughn hillyard, thank you very much. mary, mccord, stay with us, because coming up next, we're going to be talking about what we know this morning about jack smith's other big case against former president trump. we'll dig into where things stand with the federal grand jury investigating the 2020 election interference case. could we see yet another indictment against trump soon? we're back in 60 seconds. you're watching "jose diaz-balart reports" on msnbc. " diaz-balart reports" on msnbc. my a1c was up here; now, it's down with rybelsus®. his a1c? it's down with rybelsus®. my doctor told me rybelsus® lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill and that people taking rybelsus® lost more weight. i got to m

taveras, the person in control of surveillance video in mar-a-lago, is the person cooperating with the government, has given them some information. did he then say, well, here's where the gaps are, here's additional footage or here it is in a different server or backup. that's what's curious because they say it relates specifically to the obstruction charge ichts. >> which is crucial. as we await a grand jury possibly making a decision here, returning an indictment tomorrow in washington, you've also got what's going on in georgia. that georgia judge today ruled against trump. his last-ditch effort to disqualify fani willis there, saying the drum beat of the district attorney has been neither partisan in the political sense nor personal. trump's obviously paints a very different picture. and republicans, many of them, believe him. so, when this comes, does this one have any chance in georgia of being seen as nonpartisan? >> trump's whole playbook is just to attack institutions, attack individuals, try to discredit anybody who stands against him because he's standing on a pile of quicks