even though the tax policy center and others say he can't. >> the tax policy center has to be wrong because we know from the bowles simpson commission, he can have a structure like romney's proposing and raise revenue. the example, preserve some of the savings investment incentives and look at the revenue losses that would prevail. about 145 billion. then you get rid of exceptions. there's an enormous amount of itemized deductions out there. get rid of those, raise $200 billion, so you're in the black on this. and then there's the real goal of having the economy grow better. that's the main reason of doing this. if we got the growth, we'd get in the ooth 25 billion from americans. there is no question that you can do the kind of reform that the governor's proposinging without raising taxes on middle income americans. in fact, you could give them a bigger tax cut. >> a couple of things some are going to say, what kind of growth are you assuming? what is the growth you're assuming? >> a bump to 3%. we just need to grow, we're growing at 1.5% right now, so it doesn't take much to grow better.

. >> paul: i should say, kim, that this ad relying on the tax policy center study is entirely false because the romney campaign as said, won't raise taxes on middle class. the tax policy center itself says that the study is speculative on that point saying that some loopholes that romney says he might be willing to close to pay for the tax cut, that wouldn't be able to do that politically, therefore, they sort of just speculate that he would have to raise taxes on the middle class and now, the obama campaign has taken that and says, oh, he will for sure. >> right. >> paul: so, we want to stipulate that that is false, but effectiveness? >> well, it's appalling that they're doing it and would i also note, too, of all of the headlines out there, that took the wall street journal to give them some more credibility, to sort of say even the wall street journal suggests something like this. but you know, the problem here for mr. romney is that mr. obama is filling in the banks, that he's not giving himself. and until mitt romney goes out and talks about what his tax reform is, and explains it from

increased as this chart from the tax policy center shows romney's plan would give massive tax breaks to all americans making more than two hundred thousand dollars a year roughly two percent of the nation individuals making over a million dollars a year would bring home over four percent more after tax income unfortunately for those americans making less than two hundred thousand dollars a year they will on average see their taxes go up in other words the romney plan is yet another reaganomics ploy to redistribute wealth from the middle class to the millionaire billionaire classes doesn't represent the forty seven percent he doesn't represent the fifty three percent he represents the top two percent he represents people like him but here's the irony of all ironies the tax policy center also uncovered more than four thousand american households with incomes over one million dollars last year who paid zero nada zilch in taxes in two thousand and eleven another fourteen thousand households that made between a half million a million bucks also paid zero taxes in two thousand and eleven.

though the figure is in line with the tax policy center's findings on federal tax payment, most households end up paying some tax on their earnings. if you want to sound smart, tell your friends, according to the tax policy center. only 18.1% of households paid neither income tax nor payroll tax in 2011. of that 18.1% more than half were elderly who already paid in over the course of their lives and most of those who weren't elderly had income under $20,000. >>> let's huddle up to watch president obama get the you-tube mash-up treatment when clips from his speeches spliced together set to music. you remember this video from march of former governor mitt romney and eminem. >> act like the you haven't seen a mormon before. >> i'm not concerned about the very poor. got wrong. sorry, that's not what i meant. i want every american to be in the top 1%. >> i'm named will yard. that's my first name. i like being able to fire people imt you're fired. i'm rick santorum you're fired. with regards to abortion, you can choose your own -- i'm more concerned about the banks. that are unable to lend. corp

. >> reporter: roberton williams with the nonpartisan tax policy center says to be precise 46.4% of americans pay no federal tax. but it's more complicated than that. >> 60% of them are working and pay federal payroll taxes, the taxes that support social security and medicare so they're not deadbeats not on the tax roll at all. >> reporter: many of those not paying federal tax are poor. more than half have annual incomes of less than $16,812. more than 80% have incomes under $33,542. and many-- about a quarter-- are also elderly and rely on social security. at the fund-raising dinner, governor romney described a group of americans addicted to government handouts. >> reporter: in fact, nearly half of all americans-- 49%-- now receive some form of government benefits such as social security, food stamps, unemployment, medicare, or medicaid. in north carolina, 63-year-old betty russell recently retired from a medical devices company and is counting on medicare. >> so i don't live off the system. will i take medicare when i'm 65? i will. i've depended on it as part of my strategy from the get-go.

or in a campaign ad specifically on this tax policy center analysis. the heritage foundation has a very detailed pushback in which it says that the tax policy center is off its rocker and that essentially that it is as rich said cooking the books because it is choosing which deductions and credits are on the table and off the table in its analysis and that mitt romney's plan when you deal with congress could eventually get to the point where you get to the number needed to keep it revenue neutral. and you can get there. but the tax policy center doesn't and so they get to the point where well you can't get to the number so he's going to have to raise taxes on the middle class. dagen: why aren't they fighting back with ads? >> i have no clue. i mean i really have no chlue. i think a lot of republicans are saying the same thing. we are one week away from the debate in denver and there will have to be some pushback because you know the president will be armed with that very tax policy center stat. dagen: some people are talking about the debates that this

the tax policy center is one study, but there's another conducted by harvey rosen and he has concluded that under plausible growth assumptions that you wouldn't have a net tax burden decrease for the rich and an increase for the middle class or the lower class, so this all depends on whether you assume -- >> but that also assumes -- again, what rosen assumes the closing every loophole, which we know is something romney doesn't want to do. >> no, that's not what he assumes. >> he does. he assumes you're getting rid of capital gains. >> not every loophole though. he assumes by getting rid of loopholes for the wealthy, again, this is a problem where he hasn't been specific. >>e're trying get into a point. i don't want to lose sight of this, which is loopholes for the wealthy, not for others. that's progressive. >> well, it, we -- don't have the exact idea, but that's the whole idea. i think the debate sw whether we want to distribute the time more equitably. romney's plan is saying let's grow the economic pie. lower the rates for everyone and close some loopholes. they're very powerful sp

. >> paul: i should say, kim, that this ad relying on the tax policy center study is entirely false becausey campaign as said, won't raise taxes on middle class. the tax policy center itself says that the study is speculative on that point saying that some loopholes that romney says he might be willing to close to pay for the tax cut, that wouldn't be able to do that politically, therefore, they sort of just speculate that he would have to raise taxes on the middle class and now, the obama campaign has taken that and says, oh, he will for sure. >> right. >> paul: so, we want to stipulate that that is false, but effectiveness? >> well, it's appalling that they're doing it and would i also note, too, of all of the headlines out there, that took the wall street journal to give them some more credibility, to sort of say even the wall street journal suggests something like this. but you know, the problem here for mr. romney is that mr. obama is filling in the banks, that he's not giving himself. and until mitt romney goes out and talks about what his tax reform is, and explains it from beginning

. >> the tax policy center has done an analysis, and they say there is no way to pay for the cuts that you've proposed without either increasing the deficit or raising taxes on the middle class because you would have to get rid of deductions and loopholes that benefit the middle class in order to pay for those tax cuts that you're proposing and that increase in defense spending. >> so the good news for us, norah, is they didn't even actually analyze the romney plan. there are five other studies-- >> there isn't a romney plan which has been specificked about which deductions and loopholes he'd close. >> let me address that. one study from princeton said we can accomplish exactly what we're saying we want to accomplish, which is broaden the base, lower rates. what do i mean when i say that? it's not what loopholes are out there, but who gets them. and we're saying by not having higher income earners utilize these tax shelters we can lower tax rates oner because they pay more of their money to taxation. here's the other issue, we don't want to do in a back room like obamacare was done. we

the tax policy center, the sort of gold standard in nonpartisan tax wonkerry looked at this and declared it, quote, not mathematically possible. even if you erased literally every tax break and deduction for people making over $250,000 except for the ones for savings and investment which romney says he'll keep, there's not enough money there to pay for romney's tax cut. the math simply doesn't work. for a while the romney campaign had just no answer to this at all. they just said they didn't believe the tax policy center. they called them, quote, biased even though they're directed by one of george w. bush's top economists. then slowly right leaning economists began releasing their own studies showing if you made some really questionable and really different assumptions you could kind of sort of maybe make mitt romney's math look like it might add up if you did some really different assumptions you could kind of sort of maybe make mitt romney's math look like it might add up if you did some really weird things. and this was great news for the romney campaign. on "meet the press" with dav

however, when he's talking about people who don't pay income tax, the 47%, according to the tax policy center, 44% have received elderly tax benefits, 30.4%, credits for children in the working poor, 6% exclusions for other cash transfers, 5.6% education credits, 5.1% alternative minimum tax deductions and exempt interest. >> i don't care for the characterization of this group as an independent group. they lean towards the democrats. 90% of the taxes in america are paid by people with adjusted gross income of $66,000 or more. and what mitt romney is saying is that these people in that range are not the rich that those people in that range are the people that are in the auto industry that obama is so thrilled to tell us he saved, they are the people in manufacturing, they're the people in the information technology jobs. 66,000 adjusted gross income doesn't make you rich. >> governor sununu if mitt romney had said that -- >> they pay -- >> if mitt romney had said that at that fund-raiser in boca raton we would not be having this conversation today. and he would not be facing what many would sa

. >> reporter: roberton williams with the nonpartisan tax policy center says to be precise 46.4% of americans pay no federal tax. but it's more complicated than that. >> 60% of them are working and pay federal payroll taxes, the taxes that support social security and medicare so they're not deadbeats not on the tax roll at all. >> reporter: many of those not paying federal tax are poor. more than half have annual incomes of less than $16,812. more than 80% have incomes under $33,542. and many-- about a quarter-- are also elderly and rely on social security. at the fund-raising dinner, governor romney described a group of americans addicted to government handouts. >> reporter: in fact, nearly half of all americans-- 49%-- now receive some form of government benefits such as social security, food stamps, unemployment, medicare, or medicaid. in north carolina, 63-year-old betty russell recently retired from a medical devices company and is counting on medicare. >> so i don't live off the system. will i take medicare when i'm 65? i will. i've depended on it as part of my strategy from the get-go.

we asked the tax policy center, which did the most frequently cited critical report on the romney tax plan, what would happen if all loopholes went away from the people making over $1 million a year? now those paying a tax rate of 35% would pay a rate of 44.5%. now, of course, they would get the tax cut of 20%, which romney has promised everyone, which would bring the rate to about 35.6%, if you took the 20% off that total. the bottom line, the spread between the bottom tax rate and the top tax rate would be 27.6 percentage points under president romney. let's hold this up on the screen because again, the spread between the bottom rate an the top rate under president obama is 29.6 percentage points. yes. we are getting progressive income taxation, remember, our definition, from both candidates. "outfront" tonight is john mccormick and steven moore of "the wall street journal" editorial board. thanks to both of you. obviously, you can run these numbers in a lot of ways. we don't have exact information on what loopholes romney would close, so inexact science. but it is safe to say that

it's based on research by the tax policy center that says that mitt romney -- suggested that he wantstaxes for people making over $250,000, the highest earners by up to $250,000. he's not specified how he would close loopholes and so the tax policy center found that it would potentially lead to a raise of taxes on middle class earners by $2,000. it reinforces obama's message that romney is not good for the middle class. it's running in wisconsin, which is a state we didn't think was going to be in play. but the polls have tightened since paul ryan joined the republican ticket. >> our numbers shows that ad is responsible for 44% of total spending. voters now very leery about that outside cash. andrew romano, interesting app. something i'm going to use as the election moves on. appreciate it. >> thanks. >>> the donald talks politics with a kardashian. it's time now for the political sidebar. donald trump wants kim kardashian to vote republican. he sent a tweet her way this morning saying, hey, kim kardashian, i hear you are undecided in the election. ki explain why you should vote for m

according to the tax policy center, the richest tax payers- those with incomes over $2.4 million paid an average effective tax rate of 21.5% last year. the release comes after months of political pressure for romney to open up about his finances and closes a collossally bad week for the campaign. monday, liberal magazine "mother jones" posted this video of the candidate telling donors nearly half of americans don't pay taxes. >> reporter: the comments seem to have divided national politics, fueling the debate on whether the u.s. should be a country of makers or a country of takers. today, the president slammed romney for only representing half the country. >> i don't believe we can get very far with leaders who write off half the nation as a bunch of victims, who think that they're not interested in taking responsibility for their own lives. >> reporter: as the battle rages on, it could be a deciding factor in who wins in november. it's up to voters to decide whether america will be a nation of makers or one of takers. sylvia hall, "n.b.r.," washington. >> susie: for more analysis and

well, romney is alluding to research done by the tax policy center. it found just under 47% do not pay income tax. now, of that group, half do not make enough to pay taxes, many of which are working poor. the other half, the tax policy center says, zero out because of tax credits and benefits for senior cities and low-income working families. now, the top ten states with people who do not pay taxes. number one is mississippi with 45% not paying income tax. the rest of the top ten span through the south, finishing with idaho at number ten. 39% of the people there don't pay income taxes. of note here, all but one of these states voted in republican governors. now, this reflects the changing attitude of republicans during the ronald reagan presidency, 62% thought government should help those who need help. today, pew research finds it's 40%. all right, let's bring back our power panel, the agreeos joy-ann reid and steve elmendorf. hogan, to you. when it comes to who's government-independent in this country, when you look at all that information, does gove

to equate to the non- partisan tax policy center to be precise 46.4 percent of americans pay no federal tax. the paper federal payroll taxes supporting so security and medicare. >>> more than half have annual incomes of less than $16,012 more than 80 percent of the 33,542 doctors. many about a quarter are also elderly. and rely on sells security. at a fund-raising dinner governor romney described a group of americans who are addicted to government handout. they believe they're entitled to health care and to food. >>> 49% is now receive some form of government government benefits such as those security food stamps and unemployment is medicare and medicaid and in north carolina 63 year-old betty russell recently retired from the medical devices company and is counting on medicare. the airwaves will it take medicare when i'm 65? >>> i will and depended on it as part of my strategy from the get go. the waves while the number of americans not paying federal income taxes has been rising over the past 25 years. as the economy recovers from recession. it covers and less than 40 percent of ameri

the tax policy center, the sort of gold standard in nonpartisan tax wonkerry looked at this and declared quote, not mathematically possible. even if you erased literally every tax break and deduction for people making over $250,000 except for the ones for savings and investment which romney says he'll keep, there's not enough money there to pay for romney's tax cut. the math simply doesn't work. for a while the romney campaign had just no answer to this at all. they just said they didn't believe the tax policy center. they called them, quote, biased even though they're directed by one of george w. bush's top economists. then slowly right leaning economists began releasing their own studies showing if you made some really questionable and really different assumptions you could kind of sort of maybe make mitt romney's math look like it might add up if you did some really weird things. and this was great news for the romney campaign. on "meet the press" with david gregory romney trumpeted these studies, said they closed the case on his plan. >> the good news is that five different economic

according to the tax policy center those not paying federal income taxes in 2011 the elderly and poorillionaires who used deductions and reduced rates on capital gains to avoid paying any income tax at all. who put most of those in place, the republican party. joining the panel now to break down the numbers is msnbc policy analyst and columnist with "the washington post" my favorite wonk of them all, ezra klein. ezra, as always great to see you. >> how are you? >> you know, the great thing about this whole 47% debate is that it shines a light on what's going on as far as who's paying taxes and loopholes that exist and just the fairness of the american tax structure. and i'm very happy to have you on to talk about this. >> it's definitely my favorite thing about the debate. >> but it's an important part of the debate. my -- i think the thing that blows my mind here in all of this is, you know, there are three groups of people it seems in the 47% who aren't paying income tax not the same as not paying any tax at all, the elderly because they're not making incomes so not paying income ta

according to the tax policy center only 18.1% of americans pay 0 income or federal tax.ho are the 47% who don't pay federal income tax? 44% are elderly americans who get tax credits, 30% are the working poor or those who get tax credits for their children, a little over 5% are students who get credits for school, and guess who else doesn't pay federal income tax? 3,000 high-income earners who brought in more than $2 million but through deductions paid no federal income tax at all. john, those -- that's a very small handful of the american electorate. the irony is not lost, of course. mitt romney doesn't need to care about these people because he may be one himself but we wouldn't know because we don't have more than a year and a half of his federal tax returns. the irony of this, it gets romney back on the tax question, not a comfortable place for him as you know. when you were talking about earlier, you know, this sort of being political suicide or politically not so expedient to put it in milder terms a great map out from the tax policy center that shows the states wit

donald marron is the director of the tax policy center. and he is responsible for that group. d originally as 46% number don that you found of americans that paid no federal income tax in 2011. perhaps the govenor was rounding up to 47%. how come these americans didn't pay income tax on a federal level. >> for a couple of reasons.you c income tax is designed. people don't pay any income tax at all until their income reamsm ... reaches a certain level. if you have no income you will not pay federal income tax. policy makers of both parties have put in place a variety of preferences for different groups. the two most common are senior citizens. the vast majority of social security benefits are not taxed even if they are a form of income. the child tax credit and the earned income tax credit are to help working low income of families with children. if you add that that accounts for the 90% of the folks that don't pay income tax. >> part of it is the tax code.he to the historic number of americans that don't pay federal income tax? >> it's higher today than it'sbr today than we exp