seems like so much for al-qaeda on the run. our map shows affiliates of al-qaeda in iraq, syria, a number of african countries and yemen, countries pretty much all over the world, that doesn't include its presence in the far east. al-qaeda is swaying more hold over according to the economists, over more territory now and recruiting more fighters than anytime in its history. >> i think it's true. we are seeing an expansion of affiliates. there really is no command in control. there is no control from al-qaeda, meaning in afghanistan, and if you can't coordinate attacks, it makes it much more difficult, and yet at the same time, we have to realize that when you have really truly independent organizations, it's hard to take the organization as a whole down, because you have to fight them one by one. >> the economists also had this quote: >> ken, what do you think? are they winning? >> well, i don't really see them as winning, to tell you the truth, because they've really shifted, really, the threat to the united states' homeland an

i think what we found enormously worrisome is the growth of our qaeda and expansion of the movement, al qaeda has a presence in more countries today than it did on 9/11. that is basically doubled from the 2008 figure. that is fundamentally worrisome. hand in glove with that, the al qaeda brand, unfortunately, seem stronger than it has ever been in receipt years. islamists will always be stabbed in the back. but i also think it is reflection of al qaeda's on strategy and some of the success of that strategy and expanding further field to new places. existing areasts in africa and east africa. we see how groups like al qaeda and iraq that similarly were the victims or targets of successive inroads made against its leadership. three initial leaders of the movement were all killed in u.s. operations, whether was airstrikes or drone strikes -- ground strikes. at the same time, al qaeda and iraq is stronger today, which i think is another warning sign. for me, the game changers are basically first and foremost, syria. i would argue, as we do not report, that al qaeda pitched its fortunes to s

and it seems like so much for al qaeda on the run. look at the map. more than a dozen affiliates of al qaeda and iraq, syria and a number of african countries, and yemen, and countries all over the world. that doesn't include its presence in the far east. al qaeda is swaying more holdover, according to the economists, more holdover the territory and it's fighters any time in its history. jack, do you agree with that? >> i think it's true. what we're seeing is an expansion of the affiliates, but it's critical, there's no control from al qaeda, meaning in afghanistan, and if you can't coordinate attacks, it makes it much more difficult, but yet tainment, we have to realize that when you have really truly independent organizations, it's hard to take them as a whole because you have to fight them one-by-one. >> and they had ray quote from the counter-intelligence source: ken? are they winning? >> well, i don't see them as winning to tell you the truth, because they have really shifted. really, the threat to the united states homeland and to the european ma

the people who died in these attacks were killed by the blast. al qaeda in iraq -- al nasra was a splinter group of al qaeda and they are prepared to use chemical weapons albeit of a crude nature. are they behind the seron gas attacks as the assad regime claims? that seems absurd. the number of people killed is beyond the possibility of any terrorist organization. when theseron gas was deployed in the japanese subway, they only killed 12 people. these are the purview of states, not these kind of groups. i mention al qaeda in iraq in this context because they have shown they are willing to use these kind of weapons at a technical level that they have at the time. i think that is a fact that speaks for itself. >> i think syria is worrisome on some many levels. just focusing on the terrorist level, in the long game, al qaeda has sought to eliminate all its opponents and take power so one can see that the longer the civil war unfolds that the opponents of the assad regime might favor or promise to support. without that support, they could come out on the losi

on the one hand you have the al qaeda-linked fighters and on the other hand you have the free syrian my, and they are backed by the west, something of course that doesn't go down quite well with the al qaeda fighters. this recent round of violence on wednesday and thursday started when the al qaeda-linked fighters demanded that a german aid worker, a doctor be handed over to them, because they suspected he was a spy. the moderate rebels refused to hand him over, and this turned into a much larger turf battle. this is exactly the kind of fighting that has complicated the nature of the syrian conflict. you worry about who these weapons are going to end up in the hands of, and how divided these groups are. so once again, a huge battle. we have seen one of the largest battles between the various rebel groups and this time in a very important strategic border area. >> when you talk about the infighting, what is the impact for its neighbor there, turkey? >> well, it's a huge impact, really, because what we have been seeing is essentially al qaeda-linked fighters operating within a rage of j

the rhetoric has significantly heated up between al-qaeda and the moderate free syrian early. you're seeing clashes simply coming to a head that are boiling over, because quite frankly, al-qaeda views the free syrian army as one of its biggest threats. >> let's look at the latest study on the rebels. it's sobering. less than one third of the opposition forces are seen as acceptable partners for the nato allies and that's something american officials have acknowledged. if we look at the actual numbers, 1,000 rebel fighters, but 1,000 different factions. al-qaeda controls 10,000 fighters, but as many as 35,000 jihadists may be allied with al-qaeda and another 30,000 referred to as more moderate is lackic factions. do you agree? that doesn't leave too many people that the u.s. would want to help. >> i think we've been looking at a very large spectrum that makes up the syrian opposition. 100,000 fighters and as the report points out, there is not an incredibly large portion that are traditional secular mod receipts that we would traditionally want to partner with. they put the numb

military in some of these regions and war zones what is the true scope of al qaeda as they exist on the world today al qaeda today is significantly different than it was during the ninety nine two thousand and two thousand and one timeframe let me be very clear i think ninety five percent of the leadership who were in power in two thousand and one are now dead or in prison so the al qaeda today is not the al qaeda of two thousand and one it's franchised so as you point out i think it's almost a a label people will throw out there arbitrarily let's be very clear on this there are some al qaeda still in pakistan. al qaeda in the islamic magreb is eric al qaeda in the region to slow the really big cells of this they say they exist and are focused now is destabilizing countries and governments that are friendly to us they're more focused on that than they are coming after us not to say that they've been recovered some day but clearly their focus is deeper than what it was twelve years ago and you know let's talk about your book operation dark heart it was this is so fascinating the pentagon

the rhetoric has significantly heated up between al-qaeda and the moderate free syrian army. you're seeing these clashes that are simply coming to a head and they're boiling over because quite frankly al-qaeda views the free syrian army as one of its biggest threats. >> let's take a look at the latest study on the rebels from james, and its sobering. less than one-third of the opposition forces are seen as acceptable partners for the n.a.t.o. allies, and that's something that american officials have acknowledged this. if we look at the actual numbers. a total of 100,000 rebel fighters but a thousand different factions. al-qaeda controls directly 10,000 fighters but 35,000 jihadists may be allied with al-qaeda and 30,000 are referred to as moderate islamist factions. that does not leave too many people that the u.s. would want to help. >> i think for a long time we've been looking at a very large spectrum that makes up the syrian opposition. we have roughly 100,000 fighters and as the new james report points out there is not an incredibly large portion of the traditional secula

ethiopian invasion and disintegration of the courts union that al qaeda was give then gift of an ability to sell its message. so you started to see exponentially more foreign fighters enter somalia, joining with the ranks of al shabaab and portraying themselves as the vanguard in this struggle against christian crusaders and occupiers from ethiopian and kennia. and i think the al shabaab of today is multiple al shabaab and some of them i think do still pledge some form of allegiance to the ideals of al qaeda central and osama bin laden but i do think there are splinters and factions and some i would imagine will integrate into the broader body politic of somalia for their own survival and control of their own fiefdoms. >> but again i would say that even prior to the ethiopians having a massive incursion into mogadishu at the request of the transitional federal government which was the government there, that was based in-- it was-- it was based in bi doa which is in somalia, it is not just mogadishu. and those islamic course unions in the military wing had

al qaeda's closest allies, isil and al nusra, total about 10,000 fighters. many veterans of al qaeda in iraq. they're experienced and well-skilled. theestimated 35,000 believed to be hard line isl islamist whose share some of al qaeda's views, an estimated 30,000 believed to be moderate islamists, and only 25,000 fighters are believed to be purely secular or nationalists. and it's the moderates who are losing ground. >> ivan watson in new york to talk about this. you were just up in that neck of the woods on the syria/turkey border. islamists are better fighters and have won key battles for the rebels but this situation, where groups with common names are fighting and killing each other must be worrying observers and there's one particular battle going on in the last couple of days. >> that's right. it's the second day of fighting now, michael, between the more moderate rebels from the free syrian army and al qaeda-linked group of rebels, hard line group, called the islamic state of iraq and syria or isis, a strategic here near the turkish border. fighting under way for a second day. these al qaeda fighters, these are tough cookies,

an al-qaeda behind the attack there. >> reporter: can you give us a picture what it's like in yemen they have gone through a transfer of power and why is it so vulnerable to attacks? >> al-qaeda took advantage of the care to volume into 2011 and the massive crack down by the army and police on the protectors. so expanded their reach in the desert and they have protection of tribal fighters and it's going to be extremely difficult for the army because they don't have sophisticated capabilities with al-qaeda. americans with drone attacks but this is not a weapon that is likely to put an end to the presence of al-qaeda and they are getting stronger according to people who have been to the areas. >> reporter: give us an idea of where these fighters come from. >> the fighters from different parts of the world, mainly yemen and also from the gulf area, from the africa and afghanistan and pakistan and these people said that basically since they were formed in 200200 2009, the branch of al-qaeda and have allegiance to others and will use yemen as a platform to launch attacks against all west

i don't particularly want to imagine it, but you can bet they are not still in al qaeda. and so, the u.s. and western intelligence agencies no longer have that amazing asset of somebody in a trusted position inside al qaeda. and the justice department investigation into who leaked that detail, who leaked to the press that there was an informant inside al qaeda, that investigation, while obviously vital for intelligence reasons, for the fight against al qaeda, it also became a scandal, because the way the justice department decided to investigate that leak was by secretly and without notice obtaining the phone records for the main phone numbers for the "associated press" bureau in new york city and in washington, d.c., and in hartford, connecticut, and in congress at the house of representatives, the ap bureau there. additionally, the justice department got the phone records from the work phone numbers and the personal phone numbers for five different "ap" reporters and their editor. why it was important to investigate this leak is obvious once you understand what the leak is. wow tha

about the al qaeda linked terrorists behind the nairobi mall attack from mogadishu to minnesota, recruiting at an alarming rate. we find out more about the terrorists next door. >> after five months and 50 witnesses closing arguments under way in the michael jackson wrongful death trial. his mother and children asking for $1.5 billion. could they walk away empty-handed? >> announcer: keep it right here, america,

and its allies in the region to be the most dangerous al qaeda shoot. s lead by this man, a yemenian who had sighs to the former leader of al qaeda, osama bin laden. but many think this is the group's most powerful man. he is considered the military leader. >> you were telling me earlier the u.s. strategy of increasing drone strikes against al qaeda have actually been backfiring. >> absolutely. because many are saying this should not happen anymore in our country. even accusing the president of selling the retaliation to the us. we know this is quite sophisticated weaponry that the americans are now going to give a stable government, which leaves them with only one other option, [ inaudible ] the [ technical difficulties ] >> they are very much concerned about the future of the country because they know after the gains made by the americans and afghanistan and pakistan against al qaeda, the [ inaudible ] as of 2009 a new offshoot of al qaeda, launching daring attacks against western targets in yemen and different wartss -- parts f the world. they know if

they want to know why - if the us is convinced hayil was a dangerous "enemy combatant" and an al qaeda operative - he won't be tried. across town, the banner of another 'indefinite detainee' hangs outside the al hilah home. abdulsalam's family has put up a ton of posters asking for his release. this one asking "when will the son of freedom rise." it speaks to a few things. one obviously to the family's sway in this area but also to the fact that there isn't a stigma attached to being a family member of a guantanamo detainee. and as you see these posters up on vehicles, in storefronts, hanging from banners, it suggests that there's a ton of public support at least in this area for having those guantanamo detainees return home. nabil al hilah represents detainee families on a ministerial committee set up by the government - the same government he blames for what's befallen his brother. in his last skype call with his family, arranged through the international red cross, abd as- salam told his brothers about the hunger strike that started last february - at its peak, more than 100 detaine

the al qaeda-linked somali militant group alshabib. jim, tonight, they warned more attacks were on the way. >> axelrod: charlie, thank you. let's bring in our senior national security analyst juan czaraty in washington. juan, charlie d'agata is reporting the al qaeda affiliate al shabib is claiming responsibility. >> they are an affiliate of al qaeda operating in somalia for a number of years. it's been fighting for control of mogadishu in parts of somalia, but acted outside of somalia, not just in kenya but also in uganda. it has also served as a source of recruitment for westerners which has raised concerns for american authorities. >> axelrod: how concerned, even though this attack is taking place in kenya, how concern read american intelligence officials? >> well, they're very concerned. this is one of several al qaeda affiliated that are flexing their muscles, creating havoc regionally but also serving as a source of radicalization and recruitment for westerners, including americans, an american was just recently killed in somalia

is concerned about the al-qaeda presence among the rebels. al-qaeda integrated inside the rebel forces, is not helpful to the cause that we are seeking which is not only the ouster of assad, but bringing in a secular reform-minded government inside of damascus at peace with its neighbors. al-qaeda is inconsistent with that. >> another point that kerry had made was, one, we would strike, and then take them to the negotiating table or hand over your chemical weapons and we will talk. how likely is that scenario? >> well, probably unlikely, but it's important to stress what secretary kerry is saying. there is no military solution. the military strike is a means to the solution, not the solution itself. a new syrian government at peace with its own people is the ultimate goal. that's the goal not military action. military action is simply one of the means that can be used to obtain that globa goal. >> would this not spark a wider conflict? could it be limited? >> i'm concerned about the other side that it's so limited. it's nothing more than a simple warning. it's like a cop pulling you ov

al qaeda literature. al-shabab will know the extension of al qaeda, and africa and somalia. >> why did he take the route. osama bin laden didn't want to be associated with al-shabab, as far as i can gather. >> he wasn't running at first >> zawhiri was a field commander, coordinating the work of al qaeda. he was highly interested in africa, he maintained good relations with al-shabab and other organizations. he knows very well the area, and stayed in sudan for about four years. he would like to internationalise al qaeda, and was behind setting up a world organization in 1998. he is specialising in africa. >> putting the various groups together, apparently linked to al qaeda in this way. does it mean the west is going to take a concerted approach to them. we heard from the kenyan foreign minister from al jazeera -- minister, does it mean by linking with al qaeda, some of the groups who didn't have attention will get more attention from the west's anti-terrorism operations? >> yes. i believe they will. this is the aim of the attacks on westgate shopping center in nairobi. al qaeda is clever in manipulating t

so we focused on the al-qaeda organization, and not the narrative. al-qaeda gave a lot of power to their affiliates today. if you look at the narrative that only once happened in pakistan, you see it in yemen, in pakistan, just this weekend. al-qaeda-affiliated groups killed more than 100 people between karachi, so al-qaeda is basically gaining a lot of power and that narrative that we disregarded for a long time is becoming the fuel that is bringing al-qaeda back. >> thank you very much, indeed. >> thank you, sir. >> when we come back, terror in kenya, crisis in syria, is there a connection? and could it happen here? i talked to the maverick mccain, not that one, his daughter, meghan. huh...fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. mmmhmmm...everybody knows that. well, did you know that old macdonald was a really bad speller? your word is...cow. cow. cow. c...o...w... ...e...i...e...i...o. [buzzer] dangnabbit. geico. fifteen minutes could save you...well, you know. where would you go?iving away a trip every day. woman:

so we focused on the al-qaeda organization, and not the narrative. al-qaeda gave a lot of power to their affiliates today. if you look at the narrative that only once happened in pakistan, you see it in yemen, in pakistan, just this weekend. al-qaeda-affiliated groups killed more than 100 people between karachi, so al-qaeda is basically gaining a lot of power and that narrative that we disregarded for a long time is becoming the fuel that is bringing al-qaeda back. >> thank you very much, indeed. >> thank you, sir. >> when we come back, terror in kenya, crisis in syria, is there a connection? and could it happen here? i talked to the maverick mccain, not that one, his daughter, meghan. and earn the right to be called a classic. the lands' end no iron dress shirt. starting at 49 dollars. bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [

side is al qaeda arms the muslim brotherhood. how is it possible we are now assisting al qaeda? this is a conflict. we should not kid and one side with hezbollah and russia and the other al qaeda. this is not in our national interest. we cannot be in a third war in 12 years in the middle east. john: i assume you agree with the senator says this is not al qaeda. there are moderates who we should help. >> syria is a moderate nation. >> on the ground, the family in damascus. there are millions of syrians, local coordination committees that are part of helping the free syrian army. yes, al qaeda is at almost five to 10,000. an islamic liberation front that is not our allies. certainly if they are there is part of a gi. the majority of syrians are far more diverse, even in egypt. the brother had less of an egt. even in egypt the majority of muslims rode up against the brotherhood they're is that is going to happen. it will only happen post assad. i would ask the colonel. if you want to defeat them it would on happen post assad. john: l

the $64,000. how many members of al qaeda are actually in syria? >> yeah, that is the $64,000 question. that's impossible to tell. it's impossible to distinguish between those who are loyal to al qaeda, those who are taking, for example, orders or commands from al qaeda leadership in syria, outside of syria, those who are sympathetic to al qaeda. i believe earlier in the program the number of 20%, 25% was given by your guest. that seems reasonably accurate, but i think it's almost impossible to tell at this point. >> you know, isn't it a little more complex than either they're 25% members of al qaeda there. what does that say? a full-fledged member of al qaeda or someone who is an al qaeda sympathizer? >> i think what it says and the kind of complicated nature of the answer tells you how complicated the armed opposition is to the regime. so when we're talking about people on the ground who are organized with guns fighting the regime, we're talking about quite a wide range of different actors. those who, for example, pledge loyalty to the islamic state of iraq, and these are different gro

it has al indirectly at least with saudi arabia the place where the al qaeda like ideology stems from with the talent to cater a ship like that it is allied itself with the worst worst regimes in the world and it is behaving and it is supporting these groups just like it was supporting. the contra rebels in nicaragua in the past it. it's supporting regime groups in regimes that are against western interests against regional interests against the interests of the whole world but it's doing it basically out of hostility towards islam republic of iran and because israel is pushing it to do so but one of the interesting things right now is that despite obama's attempt to get support from congress and the senate and apacs full support all support it was failing to do so and i think that's a major defeat for apac as well so i'm not saying that a pax influence in the united states is waning but i think it is significant but obviously it's in the interests of the united states to behave more rationally towards iran both the previous administration and iran and the cur

he is now beginning to trade the number two member of al qaeda.-- treat the number two leader of al qaedathe place goes crazy. even the white house gets briefed. he is going to take his right to number two or number one. the meeting has to take place in a place where the cia can completely control the environment and becomes the cia base at khost. they come up with a plan to get inside here without being detected. the problem is that nobody in the cia had ever met with him. they made arrangements for him to come into the base without being checked because they were afraid someone might recognize him and his identity compromised. >> [indiscernible] [end video clip] >> that story was told by the triple agents about that. he is a well-known newspaper men. was this just a case where you could not get an official to tell the story? >> yes. later in the sequence others will speak about it. what we talked about before, i cannot get access to some of the people who were around right the final years or so. nobody in our film was directly involved with the khost operation. those i wanted to talk to