the amnesty i.t. provide legalization for 11 million, the backlog is a 4.5 accelerated backlog elimination add 4.5 according to the "los angeles times," a future flow could be 50% above future flow. that would be another 50 million. over ten that's around 30. it doesn't include other family migration. the -- you want to comment on that? >> well, i haven't done the numbers. it makes sense. >> has anybody promoted numbers they say it would -- . >> no. that's one of the issues i think people have to give actual number hads had. one thing that you left out that would increase numbers. the legislation would make unlimited the immediate relative of green cardholders as the immediate relatives of u.s. citizens it would increase numbers as well. >> millions? >> over time, certainly, absolutely. >> mr. kobach, thank you for the work in the area over time. i would note your comment about the hardship definition and some of the other definitions, all of us need to listen to that. because if you get to the point w

not de facto amnesty. the president has declared in a lawless fashion amnesty for those who do not threaten him politically. that's large classes of people in an unconstitutional fashion, he has announced, he has announced that they are issuing work permits, creating a work permit/visa for people that are in the country illegally when the law requires that they come out and enforce the law rather than grant them work permits. so de facto am necessary the? no, it's real and literal amnesty and now it seems as though many people on my side of the aisle have leaped to this conclusion that this amnesty exists, call it real, literal, de facto amnesty, it exists and the only way to deal with that is go ahead and officially act and legalize so we can somehow resolve this issue. this is an issue that's been created by many, many years of failure to enforce immigration law, but the idea that we should -- congress should ratify an unconstitutional lawless act on the part of the president is beyond my comprehension as to

they knew the word amnesty would sink the bill then. now they know that comprehensive immigration word is code words for amnesty. the american people figured that out in short order. i'll continue with the op-ed written by the attorney general in 2006. he said, as i remarked, if this sounds familiar, it's because they're pretty much the same provisions in the comprehensive immigration reform act in 1996 which supporters claim it's not amnesty. it does not change the overriding act that the 1986 law and senate language both include amnesty. the difference is president reagan called it what it was. we had an honest man in the white house who called it what it was. the lesson, i continue from general meese, the lesson from the 1986 act said amnesty did not solve the problem. there was extensive document fraud. the number of people applying for amnesty far exceeded the projections and there was a failure of political will to enforce new laws against employers. it was after a brief slowdown illegal immigration returned to high levels and cont

braun becomes the case of the year in '63. so amnesty pleads for walter, you know, the worst of the stalinists, to basically release him and, of course, it's ignored. and so the situation's getting worse. so fromm knows that bertrand russell is very close to khrushchev. so one day he shows up in wales on bertrand russell's door with a ticket to go to moscow that night, explaining that you go and get khrushchev to intervene. well, russell goes, khrushchev agrees to intervene. khrushchev community waits with albrecht, albrecht says, no. so then fromm communicates direct to khrushchev and says, so what does albrecht want? what does he want to look good? and khrushchev says he wants not to lose face. he'll lose face if you let him come back to west germany. so fromm says, that's easy. release him to sweden. no problem. then, of course, he'll come back to west berlin. but release him to sweden. albrecht buys it. the deal's pulled off. braun, almost dead, is saved. that's the kind of negotiator. i never knew this was possible in erich fromm. i

amnesty is the forgiveness of something. that's anything that says do it illegally, it will be cheaper and easier. >> to be clear, it's not amnesty, because it's not forgiveness, it's not permanent. and you have to pay a lot of fees and then then there's no guarantee you get to stay here. the same warning, rubio spoke with abc's jonathan carl to drive home how hard it would be to be an undocumented immigrant under his plan. >> all people will get is the opportunity to apply for things. to apply for a legal status. which isn't awarded on day one. you have to pay an application fee and a fine. and you're going to have to stay in that status while you pay taxes and prove that you are not a public charge. and you don't qualify for any federal benefits. >> so the gang of eight's proposal includes a 13-year path to citizenship and it includes a slew of border security requirements and electronic employment verification program and a new guest worker program. and while the bill has strong bipartisan support in the senate and endorse

>> ronald reagan let me down two tiles, 1986 when he signed the amnesty act, he was honest enough to it that. he could not follow on his word to enforce the law. each succeeding administration has enforced it let's and less. now, the president has lawlessly announced he is not going to keep his own oath of office with regard to immigration. we are destroying the rule of law. we are blowing it up. what do we expect to have for a country if we don't have the rule of law and this won't be the last amnesty. it will be the most recent and biggest promise to the next amnesty. it doesn't solve anything. >> bill: i know what you are saying, congressman. i don't think it's realistic. i think you are involved in a perception deal here. if hispanic americans don't open up a little bit towards the g.o.p. they are shot. >> the dignity of every human person, let's respect the dignity of every human person. i think most parties believe that. >> bill: when we come back, federal investigation into the boston terror attack. what is going on behind the scenes and how will they be punished, is it legal?

first thing is eskimo for this out in the amnesty the department of common security has to introducee congress. that is just a piece of paper. and before the amnesty did during cars that have to certify that there is substantially in implementing the strategy which, again, is nothing. regis started down the path. >> 90%. how did they say this? >> the zones. lou: 30,000 apprehensions a year or more. they did a study and said there are three zones. laredo, two in texas and one in arizona. as i recall. >> which is kind of a joke. but the nba is the focus on the zones and watch them and try to measure 9%. by the way, it cannot possibly measure 90 percent deism number you catch return back over the number tried to get in, but if we knew everyone to try to get in we would already have control the border. we have no idea what the damn -- denominator is. furthermore, you're only looking at those zones. the to start going into the other zones of the border. and did not hit 90%, is there some big penalty? no. it is that a border security commission that was to tell them what is ben the money.

the villagers from the job to return to their homes the amnesty brought a period of relative calm to the niger delta there wouldn't last. tom paulo boileau far to go attack a tom and a host of other military bosses took the president's deal and laid down their weapons but the root causes of the conflict were never addressed there are still no good roads no good schools and no good hospitals the oil still lives there well companies get richer the west gets sheeple oil while the environment is where the pollution. today the villagers need jocularly continue to cast their hooks in the oil the waters of the niger delta. no the song and didn't. we will remember that we will. the latest news in the week's top stories here on our t.v. russia reportedly provides the u.s. with a recording of a phone call involving one of the boston bombing suspects as investigators dig further into the details of the terrorist attack. warhawk said their sides on syria amid rumors that the military there has been using chemical weapons while damascus found it stars and those are under a lot and he and calls the

the 1986 immigration amnesty, by the way, caused a wave of follow-on immigration of 400% surge from 2.7 million illegal aliens then to 11 million now. in the wake of the boston marathon bombings, the senate may the boston marathon bombings, the senate may not move as fast as president obama wants. question. will boston marathon bombing slow down the momentum of u.s. immigration policy and procedure reform, pat? >> it already has, john. but i believe the bill is going to pass the united states senate. so many people are out front on there. marco rubio is the key player for the republicans, is being bashed -- was being bashed by conservative talk-radio bosser this. i think he would like to pull back on it. what's going to happen is it's going to pass the senate and it will go over to the house and it will beled. i don't think it's going to go -- it will have to go to conference and you are not going to get the amnesty. >> hold on. there are eight people on this committee. republicans are rubio florida, john mccain arizona, lindsey graham, south carolina, the democrats are dick durbin illi

the law. we have more than a defacto amnesty. we have an executive branch that is ignoring the statute as written. either -- there are a number of people, including me, who believe that representations' that the border will b and theblack have an e effective system of modern during and addressing pisa overstays has been adequately -- there are you say has adequately addressed in this bill. you know that since 1996 congress has said the executive branch should create a system of monitoring be set overstays, yet today 40% of illegal immigration does not come across the border, it is people coming in illegally and overstaying. i ask you whether you understand those who have seen this movie before and have said these promises and assurances that this is the last time this will ever have to happen, because we're going to institute a system of border security and enforcing the law against people who i lally, but overstay their visas, that has never come to pass. can you appreciate the skepticism that people feel when they hear that agai

amnesty is the forgiveness of something. amnesty is anything that says do it illegally it will be cheaper and easier. people need to understand under the existing law today if you are illegally in the united states you are not prohibited from getting a green card and ultimately getting citizenship. you have to go back to your home country and wait ten years and then apply for it. all we are saying is we will create an alternative to that. that will still be in place but we will create an alternative that says you want to stay here, wait more than ten years. pay the fine and pay the registration fee and have to be gainfully employed. you won't qualify for federal benefits and then after all of that you don't get to apply for anything until the enforcement mechanisms are in place. i would argue it would be cheaper, faster and easier to go back home and wait ten years than it will be to go through the process is i outlined. that is why it the not amnesty. we don't award anything. you have to qualify and apply for it. that is the

the argument is that is not amnesty. u've seen marco rubio make this argument tole many conservative outlets in the media as well as to his colleagues. that is something that was missing during the past immigration fights in 2006 and 2007. >> to your point, let me play you what he said. in reaction to those who say this is amnesty. let's play it. >> amnesty is the forgiveness of something. in fact there will be consequences for having violated the law. amnesty is the forgiveness of something. amnesty is anything that says do it illegally, it will be cheaper and easier. i would argue the existing law is more lenient. going back and waiting ten years will be cheaper and faster than going through this process that we are outlining. >> so looking at him the day after, his passion, his choice of words. all back up with you and the first read team point pougt some have perhaps doubted in the past wlor he is all in but we saw a senator all in on this issue. >> right. this was somebody who clearly wants this to get done. he is no

the last prominence medicine's in nigeria has given up his weapons offer agreeing to an amnesty deal with the government comes all to you is a rebel led attacks on nigeria's oil industry damaging his economy and costing the country billions in lost revenue now the government has offered cash and jobs for thousands of fighters in return the piece that was lost i am ready welcoming paltalk court for one of nigeria's most notorious rebel commanders a t.k. tome a money challenge of two thousand fighters about to lay down his arms and exchange the cash in education. i last place for the cameras and then the serious business of hunting over his cue just to give. the villagers from the talk to return to their homes damaged or brought a period of relative calm to the niger delta they wouldn't last. tom paulo boileau father go attack a time and a host of other military bosses took the president's deal and lay down their weapons but the root causes of the conflict were never addressed there are still no good roads no good schools and no good hospitals the oil still lives there well companies ge

last time they looked at the cost of amnesty and talking between 11-20 million illegal aliens absorbed in the economy and social safety net when you net it out. back in 2006 and 7 they estimated one trillion or four trillion dollars. what you are lookingalt. making them legal and putting them so on a so-called path to citizenship and giving them the opportunity to petition the relative. we are talking about low skilled workers and giving up the sovereign american ability to determine who comes in the country and what skills they do offer us. particularly in a time when there is 23 million illegal american resident who are out of work. >> eric: the senate is draw up a bill immigration reform bill next week. do you expect a path to citizenship. that is difference than pass to legality. you expect citizenship to be in the bill? >> that is inevitable result. what we need to do every time the discussions come up in washington which are desperate political pandering measures and in the case of the republican party desperate and misguided attempt to rescue themselveses from the demographic yo

the last prominence militants in nigeria has given up his weapons offer agreeing to an amnesty deal with the government comes all to you is a rebel led attacks on nigeria's oil industry damaging his economy and costing the country billions in lost revenue now the government has offered cash and jobs for thousands of finances in return the piece that was lost i already welcome in full time court for one of nigeria's most notorious rebel commanders a t.k. tome a money challenge of two thousand fighters about to lay down his arms in exchange for cash and education. i last post for the cameras and then the serious business of hunting over his few just to get. the villagers from the talk to return to their homes damaged or brought a period of relative calm to the niger delta they wouldn't last. tom paulo boileau father go attack a time and a host of other military bosses took the president's deal and lay down their weapons but the root causes of the conflict were never addressed there are still no good roads no good schools and no good hospitals the oil still lives there well companies get ri

i think if we look at the amnesty t could be 30 million or more. >> that's part of the problem, michael. we don't know how many there are, much less who they are. one of the things the senators have done in this immigration bill is said if you have good ideas of how to improve the legislation, give them to us. i encourage michael and anybody else who has good suggestions to make -- >> hold on i want to bring in the homeland security secretary janet napolitano she said the homeland immigration bill would make us safer, for example, by better tracking tamerlan tsarnaev. >> the bill does strengthen the electronic use or electronically readable and so forth, so that we don't have any manual entries, so any time we can get rid of human error or the possibility for human error, that's a good thing. >> so let me ask you, anna do you think that the homeland security department citizen immigration services the congress is going to be able to put together something that is comprehensive that is going to appeal to everyone? people who are worried about terrorist terrorists people who are worried a

as the good guys and those who oppose amnesty for those who have broken the law to get inry, as the bad guys. he's casting us as essentially the demonizing our side of the argument. this is what the left does and it's grossly wreckless. >> by doing that, monica, i agree with everything you just said, by doing that, he weakens america. why do i say that? because if you take his statement to the logical conclusion, everyone has the right to become an american citizen in the world. we know that's not true. national sovereignty is protected, international law. we did a survey of all the international law, human rights law, there is no human rights law in the world that requires a country to take people who are there illegally and make them into citizens. it's a policy decision, but again, as you said, very dangerous because it casts those of us who question this administration because of these statements any kind of change in the legal system and how to deal with the people here, it makes us all question we're going to be demonized in this process. we're the anti-civil rights

moving away from the claim -- i think we'll still hear some of it but they're moving away from the amnesty charges and welfare charges and zeroing in on the border security piece so if the gang of eight or the democratic leadership doesn't have a good response for them, that could derail the whole conversation because it's a hard talking point to argue against. how do you say, i know our border is not quite secure because people in southern arizona will tell you the border is not secure. apprehensions were up 9% this year and anticipated to be the same this year so people are continuing to cross. host: and the "arizona republic" reports on friday, "tight border discourages migrants from going home" so because ofet across, all these strict penalties, tougher penalties, all of that, crossing has become more dangerous, people are discouraged from going back home. guest: that is true. one of the pieces of the temporary worker program or legalization program has always been the ability for people to travel in and out of the country. that's one of the interesting parts of our immigration system

here is what is coming up in the next half-hour. amnesty international says progress is being made toward ending the death penalty, despite setbacks. >> frontline fears -- what will north korea do next? and rock rebels, watch out. here comes some real trash metal heavyweights. >> there seems to be some global progress in ending the death penalty here that is according to amnesty international's latest -- death penalty. that is according to amnesty international's latest report. >> even so, some of the world's major superpowers still use the death penalty. it is legal in china and some parts of the united states. india and japan have resumed executions after abandoning the practice for some time. human rights activists are calling it a disappointing setback. several countries are once again using the death penalty. in india, mass protests following a high-profile rape case last year at parliament to approve the death penalty for rape cases where the victim dies -- last year lead parliament -- last year led parliament to approve the death pen

the key think to talk about is not amnesty but accountability. process that presents, as you said, paying back taxes. paying your due and coming up with the rights and security. border security is stronger than ever for 40 years, we're spending $18 billion right now. 21,000 border security agents so 80s different time. it's a time for path to citizenship. >> chris: karl, you had -- this sounds familiar, you had your run with george w. bush at immigration reform if the bush white house and you ran into a road block. what do you think are the chances that republicans, especially house republicans, will stomach what you just heard? >> if the bill is along the lines of what marco rubio laid out with very tough border standards, border security standards, with a long path to citizenship that involves penalties. amnesty is forgiveness without penalty. there's a penalty tie of time. it requires them to wait until the border's secured and begin a process, 13 years or longer, before anybody becomes a citizen. they have to pay a fine then the cost of monito

lou: you called the nicole petallides -- gang of 8 planned mass amnesty. why? ith the senate immigration bill six months after it is enacted almost everybody in the country illegally will be legalized and get amnesty. they will get amnesty before the borders are secure. and pay december 14 and says of the border is insecure after five years a commission will be appointed to make recommendations. that doesn't sound like a deadline for border security lou: that is the guaranteed? talk about border security, that he would be satisfied in coming years with state teachers with the term of art operational or operatives security. what in the world? how about securing the borders? >> avenue where she gets her information the gao said only 6 percent of the borders have full control only 20% under operational control that is less than half with a failing grade and as far as the triggers is a hope and wish if not done within five years there is another commission so it is amnesty for stand border security later, if ever. lou: in sure the temperature you have taken. is it l

and the tradeoff was amnesty in exchange for enforcement. mr. speaker, the projection originally was 800,000 people in this country illegally that would get instant legalization status and that number grew to one million. roughly that was the projected amount at the time that the bill was debated in congress. we know it wasn't one million people but three million people that ended up receiving amnesty from the deliberations in this congress, the tug of war that came together and it's a product of compromise. and i would point out that compromise isn't always a good thing. this would be one of those examples that compromise was in exchange of the promise of future enforcement, ronald reagan would sign the bill to start the process to legalize the people that were illegally in the united states. sounds familiar. he signed the bill in 1986, and what we got was legalization of the people that were here, triple the number that was projected and the effort to get law enforcement was undermined continually and it was undermined in a number of ways, thro

one quoted as saying, we've seen the number of illegal aliens double, maybe even triple since amnesty talks started happening. so how big a problem is this? the folks who broke the story right here, right now. >> welcome. i'm stewart varney and this your world, not the news janet napolitano wants to hear, an agent who says the real number of people crossing the bored el illegal is startling. an agent so afraid of retaliation, refuses to reveal his name and claims this type of intimidation is commonplace. guy, why is there such a huge difference between what janet napolitano is saying about border security and what this unidentified agent is saying? >> first of all,let me clarify that town hal did break the story but it was my colleague, katy, who has really been working very hard on this over the last few days, talking to border patrol agents and texas and sheriff's departments as well and she is hearing anecdotal evidence, as we're starting to get closer and closer potentially to a political deal over comprehensive immigration reform indianapolis on the ground, according to her, are

toin my statement, i prefer it as legal status, i did not use the word amnesty. but if you're going to put me to it, i guess i would say i do believe that once you allow that person to stay in the united states after they have come here in the violation of the law, i would believe that most americans would think that would be an amnesty. thank you. >> your organization has a lots of big grassroots presence around the country. -- mr. norquist. i suppose into have taken a public role here on this that you have heard from them. what are you hearing? >> people understand the system we have is roped in. -- is broken. you have the number of high tech programs we need to. we don't have a guest worker program 92. border. we need to have protection to know who is in the country and people understand that if people have to go through paying fines, back taxes, that is not amnesty or not nothing. a lots of money. some people may be so rich they think a couple thousand dollars is nothing, but it is not for most people. with earned legal status, you see it in the center-right m

we were told there would be strict standards for the amnesty, but the bill grants amnesty for those who have been convicted of multiple crimes, mostly nonviolent crime, nonfelonies, but it's a whole host of them. we were told the bill would make us safer, but mr. chris crane, the head of the i.c.e. association says it won't, that they've been undermined, they have voted, the 7,000 member association voted no confidence in joe morton as supervisor, they filed a lawsuit, as i said, against the failure of their officials to allow them to enforce the law. basically complaining about their supervisors directing them to violate the law. that's what they complained about and that's what the judge seemed to take very seriously. we were told that this would move us toward a merit-based, high-skilled immigration system with the responsible future flow that would be more effective in identifying people who could be successful in america. this may be the biggest and most dangerous flaw of all. it does not look like it's going to move our numbers in any way in that direction. the bill would remove l

we've got now, the message has changed indicating that the amnesty, the legality, will go first and we'red somewhere along the line enforcement will occur. that was the real fatal flaw in 1986. there's a host of these questions. >> senator leahy says he wants to move quickly. that's his expression, move quickly. get this thing done. what do you say about that? >> that is just the wrong thing to do. this is an exceedingly important and complex issue. we should have hearings with the best econot to discuss the economic impact. we need top law enforce. officers to tell us what needs to be done to ensure there's lawfulness at the border. how we're going to be able to enforce workplace legality. >> are no hearings planned? this is a major piece of legislation in the works for year years. is there mo plan to hold hearings and bring in experts? >> there are no plans. we had one general hearing a few weeks ago. the problem in -- now, after senator rubio joined with some of us who -- after the hearings, senator leahy indicated there might be one hearing but senator reid intends to bring it straigh

so, under the senate bill it's amnesty or legalization first and boer security later, if ever. >> well to, if you will, share with us the temperature you've taken of your colleagues there in the house. is it likely, because you've got yo own gang of eight. i don't want to sleight the house. you have your own gang of eight working on this issue. but the first words are, they love wt the gang of eight and the senate has done. are we just going to watch this thing get rubber stamped and rushed through? >> not at all. in fact, i do not think the senate immigration bill, as it now stands, is going to pass the senate. as far as what's going on with the gang in the house, they haven't made their plan public. i like what wee going to do on the judiciary committee, which is a piecemeal approach. we're going to pass a guest worker plan. we're going to pass a bill to admit more immigrants who had the skills we need in america d the skills they need to get jobs and take care of their families. we're going to pass an e-verify bill to make sure employers hire workers who are in the country legally.