we know from the bible another thing. a tunnel like this? >> nobody knows. >> is there any evidence of this -- >> no evidence. no evidence at all. only many stories around. >> reporter: if only these walls could speak. they do, however, appear almost to weep. and their tears are said to tell a powerful story about the destruction of jerusalem. >> the name of this corner is tzedakiah's tears. >> tears of the king. >> the tears of the king. tzedakiah was the last king of judea. >> tears for the destruction of the temple. >> the nation. this was the end of the first temple period. >> do we think that these tears, this mineral spring, has been running since then? >> well, i think it's running since many, many years. for sure it's more than 2,000 years old. >> and it's really interesting because look, there are people here, there are people all over the place. it's still a living, breathing place. >> reporter: which allows the people who visit to connect with their spiritual heritage. >> it's important for us to touch the histo

the bible says among them were the israelites.ody has turned up hard archaeological evidence of that. >> how much of egypt is yet to be dug up? >> i have no idea. but all i can tell you is that you cannot dig anywhere in egypt and not find something. that's the truth. >> reporter: but bryan told us there was one place we might find a small clue as to what happened to the biblical israelites. so we left luxor and headed north to cairo. just across the street from tahrir square, the birthplace of egypt's recent revolution, there's the egyptian museum, where you can find a treasure trove of ancient artifacts, among them one that may prove that once upon a time the ancient israelites were here. >> we're going to take a journey back in time? >> yes. travel to unravel. >> travel to unravel. >> reporter: this is ahmed sadiq, a young aspiring egyptologist. we asked him to show us this monument. it's the earliest evidence of israel's existence in the egyptian record. it belonged to a pharaoh who ruled more than 3,200 years ago. king memta.

the original hebrew bible refers to it as the sea of reeds.scholars to suggest the story might be describing more of a marsh. >> or the lagoon of swamp grasses, or something like that, which puts you in mind of a fairly shallow body of water. >> somehow a swamp crossing doesn't quite measure up to hollywood's "the ten commandments." >> the israelites passed through the sea on dry land and the water was like a wall on their right and on their left. >> the egyptians are coming on their chariots and coming in, they're trying to get through that patch, and god stopped their chariot wheels, so the sea came crashing upon them and they all drowned on the command of moses's staff. >> 12-year-old samara shaw has been studying this story as she prepares for her bat mitzvah. and it's also the story that jews commemorate every year. >> these words have so much meaning, and this song in particular is really symbolizing our freedom, because this is the song that they sing once they were free. ♪ >> people of african decent were singing these spirituals based

the original hebrew bible refers to it as the sea of reeds.hat leads some scholars to suggest the story might be describing more of a marsh. >> or the lagoon of swamp grasses, or something like that, which puts you in mind of a fairly shallow body of water. >> somehow a swamp crossing doesn't quite measure up to hollywood's "the ten commandments." >> the israelites passed through the sea on dry land and the water was like a wall on their right and on their left. >> the egyptians are coming on their chariots and coming in, they're trying to get through that patch, and god stopped their chariot wheels, so the sea came crashing upon them and they all drowned on the command of moses's staff. >> 12-year-old samara shaw has been studying this story as she prepares for her bat mitzvah. and it's also the story that jews commemorate every year. >> these words have so much meaning, and this song in particular is really symbolizing our freedom, because this is the song that they sing once they were free. ♪ >> people of african decent were singing these s

at the same moment as the stories of the bible. pe is littered with the remains of its ancient past. and in dusting off these ruins, archeologists have found a treasure-trove of clues about the empire's captivating culture and about the truth behind the stories of the bible. >> the question really is how much historical information is there in the bible? the story behind the story is what we are trying to get at. >> my son darrius and i journey to egypt to see what, if anything, about joseph is grounded in fact. we decided to start our search with a bird's-eye view. >> oh, my gosh. oh, my gosh. i can't believe it. ancient ruins practically hit you in the face. but what's truly stunning is the impact of water. so here you can see absolutely clearly what water does. the whole of egyptian civilization, the story of the bible, everything, revolves around water. not just any water, the great waterway that is the river nile. crops, livestock, transportation, riches. the mighty egyptian empire would never have been possible without it. on

he repents. >> and the bible tells us that god never stops loving david. he forgives the sins of this imperfect hero. david was given a second chance. a second child with bathsheba. a son named solomon. >>> coming up, today it's the most contested spiritual site on earth. but is it also where king solomon put the ark of the covenant? our amazing journey continues when "back to the beginning with christiane amanpour" continues. zçjzmó ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [ tires screech ] chewley's finds itself in a sticky situation today after recalling its new gum. [ male announcer ] stick it to the market before you get stuck. get the most extensive charting wherever you are with the mobile trader app from td ameritrade. >>> and now, for centuries, everyone has searched for its treasures. from knights templar to modern adventurers, but what do we really know about king solomon's temple. "back to the beginning with christiane amanpour" continues. >> on our journey through the lands of the bible, we found ourselves lingering in the old city of jerusalem. here in this place that is so

is there in the bible. behind the story is what we are trying to get at. >> my son dareus and i journey to egypt to see what, if anything, about joseph is grounded in fact. we decided to start our search with a bird's eye view. oh, my gosh. oh, my gosh. i can't believe it. ancient ruins practically hit you in the face. but what's truly stunning is the impact of water. so here you can see absolutely clearly what water does. the whole of egyptian civilization, the story of the bible, everything revolves around water. and not just any water. the great waterway that is the river nile. crops, livestock, transportation, riches. the mighty egyptian empire would never have been possible without it. on east and west bank, fertile. green as far as the eye can see. and still you hit the desert. there's life, and then frankly death. >> the bible has an enormous concern for natural resources. but what happens when we get into history is history is chaotic. we find famine. we find flood. we find plague. how do we underst

at the same moment as the stories of the bible. d with the remains of its ancient past. and in dusting off these ruins, archeologists have found a treasure-trove of clues, about the empire's captivating culture and about the truth behind the stories of the bible. >> the question really is how much historical information is there in the bible? the story behind the story is what we are trying to get at. >> my son and i journey to egypt to see what, if anything, about joseph is grounded in fact. we decided to start our search with a bird's-eye view. >> oh, my gosh. oh, my gosh. i can't believe it. ancient ruins practically hit you in the face. but what's truly stunning is the impact of water. so here you can see absolutely clearly what water does. the whole of egyptian civilization, the story of the bible, everything, revolves around water. not just any water, the great waterway that is the river nile. crops, livestock, transportation, riches. the mighty egyptian empire would never have been possible without it. on east and west bank f

we know from the bible another thing. s put it somewhere in the tunnels. >> a tunnel like this? >> nobody knows. >> is there any evidence of this -- >> no evidence. no evidence at all. only many stories around. >> reporter: if only these walls could speak. they do, however, appear almost to weep. and their tears are said to tell a powerful story about the destruction of jerusalem. >> the name of this corner is tzedakiah's tears. >> tears of the king. >> the tears of the king. tzedakiah was the last king of judea. >> tears for the destruction of the temple. >> the nation. this was the end of the first temple period. >> do we think that these tears, this mineral spring, has been running since then? >> well, i think it's running since many, many years. for sure it's more than 2,000 years old. >> and it's really interesting because look, there are people here, there are people all over the place. it's still a living, breathing place. >> reporter: which allows the people who visit to connect with their spiritual heritage. >> it

that's why i love the bible. it works in all. it's not a book that glosses. for you. >> the chance to get some money, makes the brothers think twice so instead of killing joseph, they sell him for the slave traders that take him to egypt and this is where sight and sound pulls out all the stops to transport their audience to a bible based storybook version of an ancient egypt with everything you might imagine there to be, deserts, pyramids and of course, camels, even though no one is sure when camels came to egypt. >> we got two camels right here. >> wow. >> they are -- >> wow. let's see the camel. >> yeah. >> give him the camel. can i give him a kiss? he won't bite my face off? [ laughter ] >> these are serious teeth in there. >> yeah, they can clamp down. >> let me see. let me see your teeth. the performance vividly captures the sweeping and dramatic twists of fate of joseph's story in the bible. >> what? >> he goes from being an egyptian slave and prisoner to the ferrow's second in command that's because he correctly interprets the far row's dream and save

if i were to point to the bible and say -- to point to the parts of the bible that say slavery and say i believe that black people should be enslaved because of the bible, i would have my contract canceled. if i said women should be under the boot heel of a man, never at this workplace, i would lose my contract. we are now in a position where there are things in the bible that are no longer going to be acceptable in the middle of the public square? why is that going to be considered an attack on christianity as opposed to standing up for decency and respect for all americans? >> no one is arguing they don't have the right to cancel contracts. businesses can do as they choose dosh. >> do you agree. >> i don't think they should suspend him. i think he was expressing his beliefs and i don't think they will -- in fact they're doing a whole marathon, because it is a product that people want, and tlc says please suspend him, we would like to have him. i would like to think he's a markets genius, i don't know, maybe i should call him for us if that's the case. you know why i don't think he di

but what does the bible actually say about where it all began? scriptions is actually very short. there are four river, tigris and euphrates are two of them. then the other two are actually kind of unknown. that's the problem. if you can figure out where all four rivers are, then you've got the location. >> and it is the tantalizing mention of these two remaining rivers that has fueled a never ending search for the garden of eden. for centuries, people have looked everywhere from the depths of the persian gulf to rural missouri and even the planet mars. >> i have a problem with the whole looking for the garden of eden because how are you going to know when you found it? there's no sign posts to it because writing hasn't been invented yet. >> and that brings us back to the bible writings, tigris and the euphrates. a perfect back drop for the biblical beginning. >> you have got the place that early man and early women could live kind of in idyllic harmony and with the food readily accessible and all that. we've talking about an earthly paradise. >>

he repents. >> and the bible tells us that god never stops loving david. orgives the sins of this imperfect hero. david was given a second chance. a second child with bathsheba. a son named solomon. >>> coming up, today it's the most contested spiritual site on earth. but is it also where king solomon put the arc of the covenant? our amazing journey continues when "back to the begins with christiane amanpour" continues. discover card. hey! so i'm looking at my bill, and my fico® credit score's on here. yeah, you've got our discover it card, so you get your fico® score on your monthly statements now, for free! that's nice of you! it's a great way to stay on top of your credit, and make sure things look the way they should. awesomesauce! huh! my twin sister always says that. wait...lisa? julie?! you sound really different on the phone. do i sound pleasant? for once in your life you sound very pleasant. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. free fico® credit score. get the it card at discover.com. life with crohn's disease ois a daily game of "what i

especially if it's based on the bible. and if it's considered blasphemous for phil to repeat directly from the greatest book on earth and that he should be censored for those beliefs, when's next? will we stop publishing the bible because some people are offended by what's in it? will this be america's kristallnacht? robe a&e said the viewers feel safe watching with their children, yet his statements were not even made on a&e. really, a&e? this is the same network that aired "rodeo girls" with an episode bikini or bust. the same network that did a man on man sexual assault in prison. where sexual content including people in bed together seemingly naked was aired. did a&e kowtow to the gay and lesbian community? maybe. did they disregard the constitutional rights of robertson? maybe. did they suspend him based on a morals clause in the contract? maybe. but in the end, does it matter when it comes to money and a&e made a spectacular amount of it off the show i suspect a back room deal will resolve the controversy and the righ

earth this earth will not be destroyed by a flood i would point out that if you are a leader in the bible. one would have to say the great flood is an example of climate change. that certainly was because man can get overdeveloped. carbon energy . so if you were engaged in say let's say a water cooler debate with someone and you were talking about the minimum wage and the person is like god will take care of the poor or you're talking about iran and nuclear weapons or god will make sure uses their nuclear program for safety reasons you would say this person you would not listen to this person you might call them crazy it would just be completely dismissed so why do we allow members of congress to make the same argument in response to something that could be a huge problem facing the entire world francesco please explain to me all i want to start out by saying that i absolutely think that policy should be driven by scientific facts however what you are you just compared just now is comparing apples to oranges they are actually taking things out of the bible and using those as a reason vers

agree with the bible that the penalty for adultery should be death. ible quoters do not believe there should be any penalty for adultery since most bible quoters like most people at some point commit adultery. there are no bible quoters left who agree with the bible that the correct penalty for not observing the sabbath is death. bible quoting long ago became a game, a very selective game. the bible is not bothered more by gay sex than it is by not observing the sabbath, but phoney bible quoters like phil robertson are. we don't know why he is more on obsessed with gay sex than observing the sabbath. phil robertson agrees with 45% of america and a big majority of the "duck dynasty" audience that gay sex is sinful. what should have surprised everyone is that a 67-year-old man who grew up in louisiana could say that when he was a kid, he -- when he was a teenager and a young man that he never saw a black person who wasn't happy. he told g"gq" magazine that he never saw any mistreatment. i'm with the blacks because we're white trash. they're singing and h

the bible says god so loved the world he gave.his christmas gift of god's gift and what one of the things that if i've never felt unconditionally loved by somebody, i spend most of my life trying to figure out what my identity is. and i'm going to go out here and if i can't find it in god or in my family, then i'm going to find it in maybe some kind of bizarre behavior, and so i'm actually going to speak on this on christmas. i do 14 services, and we talk about how you need the unconditional love. you need to feel it, not just know god loves you but to feel it so it transforms your identity from i don't have to prove my -- why are kids in gangs? looking for identity pure and simple. >> let's take another break and talk about leadership. this is what it comes down to whether in a family or institution. i'm a catholic and extraordinary pope francis who is ripping up trees around the world in newspapers trying to race to cover this guy. [ applause ] >>> pope francis is surprising people with statements about the poor, abortion and ga

snakes talk in the bible. people live in whales in the people. people have 300 wives in the bible.here are a lot of things in this great book that can be used to substannuate slavery. the bible was used to keep people in slave. when we only use that as the foundation of making an argument, there are a lot of holes in that, and this is probably the first time that this family has ever really had to know gay people or be in touch with black people or other -- they have been very removed, and now that they are part of the larger conversation, we have to both be in conversation with each other, right? they have to hear what the larger population has to say in response to these very, very specific religious believes, and if this were fundamental muslims, if this was the shaws is of hollywood really protesting their religious believes, would the right be so in defense of them? if we heard them, you know, quote the koran. this equality freedom thing works in a lot of ways. >> you know, sarah palin ralph, said that a lot of the critics of the robertsons, called them intollerant haters. do

of course he reinforced and piers, i would encourage you to restudy the bible. hould love our neighbors ourself but that doesn't mean we approve everything -- >> piers, there are several problems with that interpretation. number one -- >> marc lamont hill first -- >> it does offer the words in jesus. the scripture about marriage and talking about being gay -- >> marriage is one man and one woman, sir. >> i heard everything you said and i want to respond. the old testament is far from clear around gay marriage or acts. >> are you sure about that? >> if you let we finish, i'll tell you it's not about being gay. it's really about prostitution, many other things -- >> 18 -- >> here -- >> hebrew scholarship is my background -- >> that's fine. >> leviticus 18 is explicit for a man to lie with a man is contrary for what god -- it's not meant for sexuality. god designed a man to be with a woman. that's obvious, not hateful. that's obvious. >> piers, piers -- >> again, many -- >> well let me -- >> marc -- >> here is the problem. >> wait a minute. let me say this, it wasn'

look, there is a lot of stuff in the bible that people believe just because it's in the bible, i understandbut, i get emails from people saying the earth is 6,000 years old. it is not. it's 4 and a half billion years old no matter what the bible says, no matter what jesus says. no matter what god says. it's 4 and a half billion years old. just because it's in the bible, no, i don't respect people believing things that are ignorant just because there is ignorance in the bible. >> howard kurtz, both sides have a strong argument. >> both sides are entitled to believe whatever they want. they do have an argument. they will vote with their remote controls. at the same time, i have got to say the people who wanted martin bashir kicked off msnbc for hateful comments. sarah palin can't say no, no, no you can't take someone off the air. >> bashir targeted one human being whereas robertson it was a group. i agree it was an assault on a group, but it's a little different when you say that person is that. all right, gentlemen. very interesting. enjoy the email that you all get. enjoy it very much. and

and secondly, the gay and lesbian stuff, look in the bible. the same men who stand up in the church of all men, i put my god, jesus, over all women. i love him more than i love her. hmmm. do you really? that sounds interestingly homo erotic to people outside your religious traditions. i'm not suggesting it is, but sim suggesting there is some subtle narrative tensions within the bible itself and christianity beyond that. but to use martin luther king jr. and rosa parks and my good friend jimmy down the street who didn't find a problem when yeeg rows were being happy. to use them as test cases for their own bigotry is again to radify the ignorance upon which bigotry rests and an insult to african-american people. they don't know their history. rosa parks was an activist against rape culture and then subsequently against white supremacy. martin luther king jr., ralph abernathy, angela davis, rosa parks, all of them were in a contest against the -- if you will, the devaluation of african-american culture and more broadly, wanted to embrace the rig

i don't know if reading the bible would have helped out. said, i think he could have stated his religious conviction without the condemnation attached to it. therefore, a and e couldn't have done anything, would have been in violation of his religious belief system. now, as i said, a and e is going to take a lot of heat here. this crew might even move their show off that network. so, they may lose in this -- in the long run economically. is it worth it. >> you are going to lose either way. you either lose with the right or lose with the left. >> would you have lost if a and e had just come out and said what mr. robertson said was not -- does not reflect our corporate values and we disagree with it and, indeed, condemn it all right? but he is an american, he has a right to his opinion. would that have solved it? >> so i think first of all how you say things matters. how he came out and communicated this made a big difference. the way it was perceived rightly is that it was an attack on gays. also because is he a reality tv is star and not a

>> i believe that the basis for my belief is actually in the bible. ck to the former debates and it ties in here as well, i think we have a choice on how to use this book that we agree is holy and rich to us. you could take lift passages out of this book and make a case for polygamy or for slavery or for sexism. but that doesn't give us the right to use the book in this way. you're not supposed to use it judgmentally but we're supposed to use it in a way that is helpful to people in their every day struggle for inspiration and for help. and so when i look at this script tours and the passages, nowhere do i see that homosexuality is actually talked about in terms of a loving homosexual committed relationship. so my basis for my faith is biblical. and i'm saying the church must recognize that what we're doing is actually discrimination. we treat our homosexuality brothers and sisters as second class christians. >> pastor jeffries, i see you shaking your head. jump in. >> look, moses said from the beginning that god's plan for sexuality was one man and a

not about the bible or believing or not believing the bible it's about sick -- singling out a group.s is about targeting gays in america and saying you are not worthy eyes of the lord. >> i don't think so and if you look at gq he named about 11 other sins you're leaving out including greed, lying, stealing in the same list. i think this is an issue of "gq" magazine choosing to highlight this to start a massive war over a guy that's not very articulate. he is incredible blunt -- >> hang on -- >> [ overlapping speakers ] >> wait, wait, wait. he is articulate because actually, tmz unearthed a sermon from 2010, women on women, men on men, they receive the jude penalty for they are per visions, school of murder, their arrogant inventing ways of doing evil, 245 years after your forfathers founded the country. what are you going to do run with them, die? >> it's absolutely clear. the center is gay and lesbian people including beast alty. it is absolutely disturbing and disgusting he's using christianity. >> mark, my biggest issue, if you actually read again what he said in "gq" he did not e

give that up. >> sir, you mentioned the bible. to what scripture says. >> you are backing him. >> it's going to offend people who do not believe in it. it's okay. it's what scripture does. you want to change the scripture. you have never read the bible. you have never read the bible, then. >> desmond tutu didn't, either. >> let's move on to this other question. earlier in this newscast, we talked about a top pr executive fired for an insensitive tweet about aids in africa. in hours, she lost her job. is this a form of zero tolerance in society? what happened to forgiveness in this day and age? ben? >> she worked in a pr firm. yeah, i would want someone to fire someone that said that. obviously, if you can't pc yourself in your own tweets when you work in pr, why would i want to hire you to help with my business plan. so, i think this is one of those where, you know what? in the professional world, you do something like this, you tweet something like this and get fired, you should expect it when it's this ridiculous, especially tal

and sexual prescriptions and ignore the same people that invoke the same sexual prescriptions in the bible ignore out of hand, dismiss out of hand when they apply to hets row -- heterosexuals. >> i would say i agree with dan about the comments about bestiality and those are things i don't think christians should be defending and i don't think religious people should get in a situation where any time anybody says something obnoxious or nasty about gay people, they should spring to their defense because you have to take the side of the persecuted kruven and the -- christian and culture wars. by the same token, i believe there is a selective attitude, i think, here in the media, in corporate america, in a lead circle, where it's like, we love these duck dynasty guys and like they are quirky and stuff, but keep your christian faith nicely off stage and so on -- >> keep your bigotry and hypocrisy off stage is the point. >> i think the question, dan, is setting aside the specific comparisons to issues of stoning in the old testament and so on, those things in christian doctrine, you know, the id

i don't know if reading the bible would have helped out. said, i think he could have stated his religious conviction without the condemnation attached to it. therefore, a and e couldn't have done anything, would have been in violation of his religious belief system. now, as i said, a and e is going to take a lot of heat here. this crew might even move their show off that network. so, they may lose in this -- in the long run economically. is it worth it. >> you are going to lose either way. you either lose with the right or lose with the left. >> would you have lost if a and e had just come out and said what mr. robertson said was not -- does not reflect our corporate values and we disagree with it and, indeed, condemn it all right? but he is an american, he has a right to his opinion. would that have solved it? >> so i think first of all how you say things matters. how he came out and communicated this made a big difference. the way it was perceived rightly is that it was an attack on gays. also because is he a reality tv is star and not a

bible passages and slavery. do you sort of see this in the same light that one's interpretation of the bible should change over timethe written word, the written word? >> well, i believe that everything evolves. today we know that homosexuality is not a choice, and so today we have different knowledge, and sometimes i think people don't realize that the bible itself contains a development of progressive revelation. i think that's a term many like here, progressive revelation here. that means we get a more clear picture about the truth of what is, you know, what god is trying to express in the bible, in the holy scriptures and of course, you know, the ultimate revelation of god's truth was embodied in jesus christ, we as christians believe and it's very significant to me that jesus christ never once mentioned homosexuality. >> as for your specific situation, you've now been defrocked for performing your own son's marriage to a man. you were asked to voluntary relinquish your credentials, you said no. the united methodist church has thrown you out. when you performed your son's wedding, did you think the road would e

the bible never mentions abortion or obamacare. we do know that abortion or fetusg a miscarriage of a was not the same thing as hurting or killing the mother. every other reference may be poetic. you turn to the bible and you are looking at the wrong document. guest: i could not disagree more, barry. host: i will get our viewers involved. loretta isfirst, -- first. caller: merry christmas, everybody. i do not know where to begin. we should have a separation between church and state. it is not because doing any good right now. we have the republicans cutting food stamps, cutting everything for the poor and they call themselves christians. thereverend lynn, if god is one that is going to do all the judging, you have nothing to do with any woman having an abortion. let god do the judging. that is what is wrong in congress right now. the republicans think they run everything, that america is there's. here they come with all of the evil, wicked policies that have screwed this country up. host: all right, loretta. the telephone just fell.

and he's quoting the bible. >> it is close, but -- >> can you fault him for that? > i can't fault him for that. the problem i have is when people start taking an english translation literally. because you can't do it because it was originally written in hebrew and greek. and it's i have hard to translate those things, and knowing the history behind that probably had more to do with men having section with boy, those verses particularly that he was talking about because it was something that was more practiced. >> so why doesn't the catholic church take issue with that? there are a number of priests in the catholic church who have been accused of having sex with boys. >> i'm glad to see that people are offended by these things and by intolerance. so i think we're lucky to have that. but i think the catholic church, most catholics are against priests having sex with boys >>> still to come. hackers steal the identity information of millions of victims. >>> and a pr executive loses her job over a tweet. and now an actor and politician in hot water over things they poste

i would not take the teachings of the bible of the koran or other books in other religions. as substituting science as be in a better textbook physics or biology. the bible doesn't tell you how evolution works better. it gives you a. perspective a sense why it happened not so much how it happened but i think we can see that across many organized religions this returned littrell in top rotation it's very prominent in this long for example and be reemerging of salafism and. but even then. christianity is literally in top rotation. holy books it is on the increase and that's where that conflict with sides and. you know what a knowledge is a thing. very prominent i agree with that but i would rather think it's a conflict within religion itself it's the question of what religion really teaches what it's about. how to understand religious messages. from my personal perspective it is short sighted to be too literal. to expect that what has been written five thousand years ago or three thousand years ago two thousand years ago would be. the. the. more exact description of the world

of the community understand the bible better and it allows them to live in the end times. well that by itself doesn't seem to be a problem but when it leads to other elements, then that trigger of law enforcement concern as well as the popular press is concerned, then suddenly this idea of somebody listening to god and having his followers do things that seem to be aberrant to national norms, that's dangerous and that needs to be policed and controlled. >> we are talking with karen houppert. tell us a little bit about "chasing gideon." >> i worked on this book for a year and a half and it's tied to the 50th anniversary of the supreme court decision gideon versus wainwright and my initial idea was to go out and take the temperature across the country to see how this issue of the right to counsel has played out in the last 50 years since the landmark decision. so, i found there is a huge crisis in the courts that public defenders are grossly overworked some of the public defenders i have talked who are carrying as many cases as 700 at a time so what i tried to do in the book

i would not take the teachings of the bible of the qur'an or other books in other religions.as substituting science as be in a better textbook of physics or biology. the bible doesn't tell you how evolution works better. it gives you a. perspective a sense why it happened not so much how it happened but i think we can see that across many organized religions this returned littrell in top rotation it's very prominent in this long for example and be reemerging of salafism. but even then. christianity is literally on top rotation of holy books it is on the increase and that's where that conflict with science. you know what a knowledge is a thing. very prominent i agree with that but i would rather thing it's a conflict within religion itself it's the question of what religion really teaches what it's about. how to understand religious messages. from my personal perspective it is short sighted to be too literal. to expect that what has been written five thousand years ago or three thousand years ago two thousand years ago would be. the. the. more exact description of the world fu