the scism occur? >> nay are collaborators in 1778. in fact hamilton presumes that madison is going to be supportive of his financial plan. because madison in the convention, madison wants a federal veto for all state legislation. that's a huge thing. he's not going to get it, he doesn't get it, but he wants to end the sovereignty of the states all together in the convention. and the compromise that results isn't to his liking. in some sense, he's even more of a federalist at that stage than hamilton, so that it's tough to make that case. two things happened at the same time and you can't separate them to figure out what's the -- what's the most effective causal occasion. one is jefferson comes back from paris. and jefferson enters the government as secretary of state and madison becomes jefferson's accolade and worships the ground he walks on and see the sub alter of jefferson. and no longer is the sovereign voice of himself. the second thing that happens is the passions of what we referred -- richard and i were talking about, the hamilton financial plan. and all of a sudden, he regards this new federal government as some

the second thing that happens is the passions of what we referred, richard and i were talking about, to hamilton's financial plan. all of a sudden he regards this new federal government as something that is not compatible with virginia's interests, either economically or in terms of slavery. like, oh, my god, you know? and he's serving in the house of representatives so that his constituency is telling him that they oppose all these things. but it's breath takingly quick. i mean, they are all of these people. there's a young woman out here that's trying to get a monument devoted to madison. haley, there you are. >> here or in washington? >> in washington. in washington. it's certainly justified. but the people that love madison the most don't understand him. madison changes positions three or four times in his life, and politically madison is the guy that's in -- if god were in the details, madison would be there to greet him upon arrival. madison is a nose counter. now -- and now if you want to really make the most brilliant case for madison, it's possible, he understands the argument at thattive of the context