the new u.s. commander in iraq. ty in the country, but what he sees this time around almost four years after the war started was disturbing and different. >> first day, full day in command was traveling around baghdad to see the situation there, which frankly was really, really quite horrifying. i had known these neighborhoods as thriving, bustling prosperous areas in some cases they are completely blown up. the people moved out. in one case, it was almost metaphor, literally tumble weed blowing down this empty iraq needed an influx of american troops to secure the peace. petraeus had a plan to do just that. >> do you mind if i ask what you do for a living? >> and it started with this. >> the only way to secure the people, the only way to ensure security is to live with them, to be in the neighborhood 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. >> the general says this tactic was the exact opposite of what the united states had been doing in the prior months, pulling out of the cities and towns and neighborhoods of iraq and retre

almost all are sunni and they have suffered at the hands of iraq's shiite government. >> first of allinstead of anarchy, they now have law and order. i ask if they like the security? they take taxes. they take care of the poor. >> bizarrely, isis even reaches out to the disabled. this is a recruitment video for deaf jihadis who wish to join isis. >> isis minders kept him away from only one group. he was not permitted to speak to or even go near a single woman. >> and you think that you would win the war? >> perhaps the most astonishing thing he heard from both isis soldiers and leaders is this. >> they want to provoke the united states to bring ground troops to the country. >> it's a clear target. they want the americans to bring their boots on the ground. they want to fight for americans. that's their dream, the ultimate fight against americans. that's what they want. that's what they hope. >> they do want to fight the americans on their own terms. in this regard, isis has a different dream than al qaeda. osama bin laden wanted to perpetrate large scale terror attacks against the wes

and, yes, he was in american custody during the iraq war. has shown his face publicly only once. last year when he gave a sermon to his followers. but back when the u.s. had him under lock and key, he was seen as, believe it or not, a man who could be trusted. >> the americans seem to see abu bakr as someone who could keep the prison quiet. there are 24 camps within the sunni side of camp bucca, he was allowed open access to all of them. >> he wasn't considered from everything that we know now a high-level detainee, and he was allowed to, you know, lead prayers, he was allowed to give religious lessons. >> the future leader of isis was giving other inmates lessons on islam. those inmates were jihadists or former ba'athists, henchmen of saddam, or simply common criminals. >> it most assuredly was a jihadist university. unquestionably. >> put them all together in the baking heat of southern iraq, with al baghdadi, a man who dreamed of a new kind of terror, it was a recipe for isis. >> they were meeting, they were playing soccer together, they w

with the coalition campaign first he spent time in iraq and set up this organization which did not start as the al qaeda franchise but became one after a series of spectacular attacks targeting the jordanian embassy with sue wanted to give that average reader that we all have targets on their backs the would fly planes in the buildings into whatever they can to lead and humiliate and frankly every civilized country in the world so this is of broad history but it culminates with the profiles of who these guys are and what they want. >> host: can you go into what you describe very effectively in the of book of the social media and the internet campaign? keeping in mind the question of whether or not the extent to which isis' can recruit is a function of the scope of its social media and internet campaign or to what extent it is the actual isis message. >> guest: everybody has heard about the four infighter phenomenon. 14 year-old boy is indonesia's addicted to video games choice this kids in kentucky get married for the purpose to travel to turkey because they want to jo

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and, yes, he was in american custody during the iraq war. i has shown his face publicly only once. last year when he gave a sermon to his followers. but back when the u.s. had him under lock and key, he was seen as, believe it or not, a man who could be trusted. >> the americans seem to see abu bakr as someone who could keep the prison quiet. there are 24 camps within the sunni side of camp bucca, he was allowed open access to all of them. >> he wasn't considered from everything that we know now a high-level detainee, and he was allowed to, you know, lead prayers, he was allowed to give religious lessons. >> the future leader of isis was giving other inmates lessons on islam. those inmates were jihadists or former ba'athists, henchmen of saddam, or simply common criminals. >> it most assuredly was a jihadist university. unquestionably. >> put them all together in the baking heat of southern iraq, with al baghdadi, a man who dreamed of a new kind of terror, it was a recipe for isis. >> they were meeting, they were playing soccer together, they

this is about learning the lessons of iraq. e now this architecture of the joint intelligence committee chaired by a very senior official who has that independent view. i cleared every word of my statement very clearly with them. on the issue of civilian casualties, which is important, i believe the truth of the matter is this. in a year and three months of the action we've taken in iraq there have been no reports of civilian casualties. we believe we have some of the most accurate weapons known to man. i think extending our activities and to syria is likely to reduce civilian casualties rather than increase them. finally, he asked about unintended consequences. he can have a big debate about the action we have had to take around the world. in my view we have to recognize that this poisonous narrative is a battle for our generation. we see it in nigeria, we see it in somalia. we can see it in our own country. combating with everything we have got, such as argument and all those things together. i believe we thought through the c

the caliphate is both syria and iraq. vid: it's a question that you have to go both places, obviously. i would say if you back all the way up to the overarching framework for your strategy against the islamic state, it has to be the same as we've employed against al qaeda. it has to be comprehensive and it has to be everywhere. again, you can't whack-a-mole here to have them pop up there. you have to whack all the moles all the time simultaneously. charlie: that's what happens. we've talked to bob gates here last weekend and others, to mount -- whoever the people on the ground are, you've got to make sure that you maintain and hold -- you can drive them out of a certain place but how do you prevent them unless you stay there? david: that's exactly right and this is very man power-intensive. as we learned in iraq and as we've learned in afghanistan. you've got to have those forces established, they've got to have legitimacy in the eyes of the people. and they've got to be ready to hold these areas after they have been clear

again, this is about learning the lessons of iraq. have now this architecture of a joint intelligence committee chaired by a very senior official who has that independent view. i cleared every word of my statement, very clearly, with them. on the issue of civilian casualties, i believe that the truth of the matter is that british capabilities provide one of the best ways to reduce civilian casualties. in a year and three months of the action we have taken in iraq, there have been no reports of civilian casualties. we believe that we have some of the most accurate weapons known to man. i think extending our activities into syria is likely to reduce civilian casualties rather than increase them. finally, he asked about unintended consequences and the recent history we have faced. we can have a bigger debate, i am sure, about the action we have had to take around the world. in my view, we have to recognize that this poisonous narrative of islamist extremism is a battle for our generation. we see it in nigeria, we see it in somalia, and,

oldest civilizations on display at the iraq museum in central baghdad. d corridors of this gallery are adorned with stone carvings dating back to the time of the severe vinnies and babylonians, societies that predate jesus christ by thousands of years. they has worked at the iraq museum since 1999. she says in the weeks leading up to the 2003 u.s.-led invasion, she and her colleagues warned iraqi and american officials that the museum was vulnerable from mob listened. >> more than 50,000 pieces were stolen just from this m museum. they damaged other things, furniture and everything. >> reporter: almost immediately officials began effort to his get back the relics. objects were unoathed from private homes, covered in raids and some simply repeater on the museum's shelves. others were seized from international antiquities market in jordan, lebanon, syria, kuwait, saudi arabia and as far as away as new york. including this piece known as the statue. the 150-kilogram bronze relic dates back to the ancients mess pa train vinnie a indicate vinnie period and is

the same thing in iraq. they defeated saddam hussein, removed him from power but what is happened after that? the problem is victory can be achieved but we have to have plans after victories. do we have any plan? what will happen to the middle east after we defeat, if we defeat the islamic state? no one can tell us about the future syria. no can tell is the future of iraq. how can we create persistence with this yet, this is the most important thing. >> it you mention some external vulnerabilities of the islamic state. the question i think was about internal vulnerabilities. do you see anything inside the administration that might weaken the organization question i. >> yes. internal and next are not related. that is almost impossible. usually the internal vulnerability is defeated by the outside. this is the most important important, yes it is foldable inside because as i mentioned because of the lack of government. because the people are not involved, they're not determining their future. this is the problem

would you like to see america having a greater role on the ground in iraq? no? amiri told us he would not welcome a return to the days when thousands of u.s. troops were deployed here. >> amiri: why do you need to bring american soldiers to die on iraqi ground? we have young iraqi men who are able to defend their country, if they had thehequipment. it would be shameful for us. >> logan: on our trip with amiri's men, they delivered food donated by private citizens to shiite forces along the frontline, eager to portray this as an army of all iraq's people. but there are very few sunnis among their ranks, and the shiite militias have been accused of revenge attacks against sunni civilians in areas they've liberated. detailed in a u.s. diplomatic cable we read to him, including algations that he may have persononly ordered attacks on up to 2,000 sunnis during the civil war that followed the u.s. invasion. "one of his preferred methods of killing allegedldlinvolved using a power drill to pierce the skulls of his adversaries." >> amiri: if you have the slightest eviden

the u.s. invaded iraq. >> the point is she having supported the iraq war can't actually then turn around and blame it on the bush administration. i think the, look, she's -- >> she did. >> right. i think it's not going to be that credible. she has -- she's going to have to run the campaign being linked to the iraq war and the libya war. both wars that have turned out very badly. i think that's going to be tough. >> and obama's foreign policy -- >> let paul -- paul, i want to remind viewers, you support a pro-hillary clinton super pac. >> i'm for -- i'd be for hillary if nobody paid me. okay? i'm for hillary. i love her. i think she'd be a terrific president. with the debate will go in the general, peter, is the next iraq war. a lot of republicans want, as they say, boots on the ground. martin o'malley had a good moment where he talked about a mom of a soldier saying don't call my kid a pair of boots on the ground. that's the phrase republicans like. they want to reinvade iraq. the general election debate could well be on national security. a much -- a much bigger debate about should the united sta

s leadership are the same guys you fought in iraq, aren't they? and they most certainly are and if we look at the conflict in iraq and syria right now as americans we determine if the conflict was over in iraq in 2011 but obviously that is not the case and i think that is what on a personal level makes it difficult to watch because as difficult as we decided there is closer there clearly is not closure and the war continues to eek on and on and on and perhaps we are at a point to assert the war never ended and try to find a conclusion to it. >> do you see potential foreclosure now given complexities on the battlefield in syria? >> one of the things that islamic state has done in some respects made this fight much more clear than the fight was for instance seven or eight years ago and by declaring itself a state and holding territory puts it in a situation where it's a murky adversary and the west and coalition of western and arabic countries knows how to fight a conventional war and take background and hold ground and obama administration strategy

director and general of the army about iraq, syria and the response to i.s.i.s. and paris. >> i think this probably is a generational struggle. i think even if you success sealed operationally, tactically against the islamic state in iraq and then in syria, there still is going to be a battle. there still will be extremists ideas. there will still be individuals who will be animated by those ideas, there will still be those who propagate those ideas. >> rose: david petraeus for the hour next. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we begin this evening with ongoing coverage of the recent paris attacks. questions continue to surround the global response. last week, former secretary of state hillary clinton called irvegz. >> it's final to begin a new phase and intensify and broaden our efforts to smash the would-be caliphate and deny i.s.i.s. control of

county bid to read 3,000 with the iraqi military in iraq and kurdistan with a shrinking presence in afghanistan and the question is still open open, you will not have the size of the task force at the height of the of war there. but that would probably lead to a border defused presence around the world. >> what did you learn of the effectiveness, i did you learn any political lessons from what you discovered? >> i did not approach the book looking for political lessons certainly there is some to be learned and how to reorganize itself and a large part of the book tells a story however of the organization w

the country. but with raids like this one in northern iraq a few weeks ago, the u.s. is still being drawn deeper into this war. american special operations soldiers helped rescue 70 iraqi hostages, but lost one of their own, the first american to die in combat here since the end of the iraq war. would you like to see america ground in iraq? no? amiri told us he would not welcome a return to the days when thousands of u.s. troops were deployed here. >> amiri: why do you need to bring american soldiers to die on iraqi ground? we have young iraqi men who are able to defend their country, if they had the equipment. it would be shameful for us. >> logan: on our trip with amiri's men, they delivered food donated by private citizens to shiite forces along the frontline, eager to portray this as an army of all iraq's people. but there are very few sunnis among their ranks, and the shiite militias have been accused of revenge attacks against sunni civilians in areas they've liberated. amiri's own sectarian past was cable we read to him, including allegations that he may have p

of the state in iraq in 2003. n illegal action as far as the united nations was concerned. the effect of that illegal action has been so great, to characterize it as a mistake seems, i think, rather precious to me. it is far more than a mistake. and until u.s. foreign policy planners begin to seriously consider their culpability in producing the kind of social forces that you rocked to attack , beirut, inkara paris, i don't think there will be a real shift of policymaking. so i think this is an historical opportunity with the russians and the americans starting to discuss what to do with isis or to reconsider the question of regime change, to reconsider the question of evangelical foreign-policy that seems to have brought far more grief to the world than peace and security for people. , we're goingashad to take a break and come back to you and go to paris to speak with a muslim leader in paris as this broadcast is taking place, there is a muslim rally taking place in paris. vijay prashad is professor of internation

the invasion of iraq and the way we go it it gave zarkowy a clears path. there were many inflection points of getting the sunni and shia affect. it didn't happen overnight. then there's the question of, you know, president obama and a lot of people say, "well, you know, the withdrawal from iraq, you know, we had them down. that's the real sort of--." >> rose: we left no troops there. >> exactly, we left no troops there. the iraqis didn't want us there but the question of could we have pushed hard tore get the people there? i don't have the answer to that. could we have continued to keep pressure on that? would we have moved into syria after that? terms of the-- i have a lot of questions in my own brain about there's a lot of talk of should we have armed the moderate anti-assad groups in syria? was that a big mistake of obama's? and i don't know the answer to that. i mean, arms tend to go into the hands of bad guys. had we gone-- i'm sorry? >> rose: some of the arms we sent in, did go into the hands of al-nusra. >> that's the point i'm making. i think what'

. >> the iraq irpolitician who helped persuade the united states to invade iraq has died. he was a key force in helping guide the bush administration towards that war. >> he was still in exile when he advocated for the u.s. to invade iraq in 2003. the shia politician with a phd from the university of chicago built ties with reporters and the bush advisors, who helped shape u.s. foreign policy. he spoke at the u.n. shortly after the invasion. >> to those who stood with the dictator and who continue to question the intentions of the american and british governments in undertaking this liberation, we invite you to come and visit the mass graves where half a million of our citizens lie. >> his relationship with washington would soon turn from close to cold. he received millions of dollars from the c.i.a. for forwarding evidence that he said showed sadaam hussein had weapons of mass destruction and considered a favorite to lead iraq after the toppling of whose sane. it became clear that his information was false or exaggerated, the u.s. began distancing itself from him. he tried

this is about learning the lessons of iraq. e have now this architecture of the joint intelligence committee chaired by a very senior official who has that independent view. i cleared every word of my statement very clearly with them. on the issue of civilian casualties, which is important, i believe the truth of the matter is this. in a year and three months of the action we've taken in iraq there have been no reports of civilian casualties. we believe we have some of the most accurate weapons known to man. i think extending our activities and to syria is likely to reduce civilian casualties rather than increase them. finally, he asked about unintended" is -- unintended consequences. he can have a big debate about the action we have had to take around the world. in my view we have to recognize that this poor business -- poisonous narrative is a battle for our generation. we see it in nigeria, we see it in somalia. we can see it in our own country. got,ting a everything went such as argument and all those things together. i beli

iraq, on a map, yes, we still see the lines. but there is no more iraq. divided up into groups now. the sunni controls a region, the shiites and isis controls a big piece of that now. is-- does that mean we should really allocate that? should we say that this is a new region? should we accept that or. >> i think in a sense what we have to do is recognize that what we have are these three enclaves, or three stateless. i don't think it is going to change formally. but the kurds are essentially self-governing in the north. the shiites are self-governing in the south and the bad land in the middle that isis controls. and i think again when you look at syria, the lesson to learn from that is, if you did end up, imagine your wildest dream come true, the assad government which we are battling, does get toppled. what is goes to happen then. you are going to have chaos. the the alawites will try to create their own little state, the kurds, it will turn into an intensified civil war with probably these enclaves just like you have in iraq. >> trevor: one of those en

we go to the iraq museum in baghdad to see what is being done to try to protect them. >> iraq's ancientistory and relics from the world's oldest civilizations on display in central baghdad. the walls and corridors of this gallery are adorned with stone carvings dating back to the syrians and babylonians. societies that pre-date joke by thousands of years. they have worked at the iraq museum since 1999. in the weeks leading up to th the 2003 u.s.-led invasion she and her colleagues warned that the museum was vulnerable. but no one seemed to listen. >> more than 50,000 peopl 50,000--pieces were stolen just from this museum. furniture and everything. >> almost immediately officials began efforts to get back the relics along with u.s. support, a recovery department was set up. objects were unearthed from private homes recovered in raids and some simply reappeared on the museum shelves. others treasures were seized in jordan, lebanon, syria, kuwait, saudi arabia, and as far away as new york. including this piece known as the statue, the 150-kilogram bronze relic dates back to the ancient mes

the first u.s. combat casualty in iraq in four years with troops on the ground in iraq and delayed withdrawal of troops from afghanistan. we will speak with author phyllis bennis as well as retired colonel andrew bacevich, about obama's endless war. in the islamist government of the turkish president erdogan has regained its poetry majority, but opposition protest are continuing. turkish people do not celebrate the result of the election cheerfully. although a political party has received almost 50% of the votes, why? because significant number of the people are living in fear. everybody is uneasy over how far can the ruling party go. i can assure that nobody needs to be afraid or concerned because we are here. amy: we will go to patrick cockburn in istanbul to find out what the comeback victory means for the country. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. in a major policy shift, the white house has announced a team of special operations forces they say numbering less than 50 will be sent in to syria. this marks the first s

charlie: what is the status on the ground today of isis in both iraq and syria? mr. morell: great question. what has really happened since we started this war against isis? it is absolutely true that the amount of territory that they controlled in iraq and syria is about 20% to 25% less than it was when we started this. so we have shrunk the size of the safe haven, and they have not made the safe haven any bigger, so that is on the plus side. charlie: that's what the president meant when he said we contained them. mr. morell: that's exactly what i think he meant. on the downside, they solidified their position in the safe haven, so it is not unfair to say that they are the equivalent of a state in their safe haven. they are a state in every respect of the word except one, which is they don't have any foreign recognition or relations. but in every other regard, in terms of how they govern, in terms of having a military, having a police force, having a judiciary, collecting taxes, running schools, running hospitals, taking care of the poor, all of that they do within th

the u.s. to invade iraq in 2003. e shia politician with a phd from the university of chicago built ties with recorders and the bush administration. >> for those who stood with the dictator and continue to question the intentions of the american and british governments, we invite you to come and visit the mass graves where half a million of our citizens law. >> reporter: but his relationship with washington would soon turn from close to cold. he received millions of dollars from the cia for forwarding evidence that he said showed saddam hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was considered a favorite to leave iraq after saddam hussein was toppled, yet after it become clear the information he provided was false, he u.s. began distancing itself from him. >> i will be very much part of the future of iraq, but i'm not a candidate for any political office. i want to focus on i'm home, and focus on rebuilding civil society in iraq which is the basis of a true democracy. >> reporter: iraq and the u.s. forces invaded his

they had a lot of practice fighting in iraq in the post-saddam years when they were al quaida in iraq and practice fighting in syria when they were fighting the assad regime and still are. so they have a lot of practice and makes a better fighter. they have a lot of weapons from assad's military stockpiles. they have lots of money, tens of millions of dollars a month in revenue. so they're pretty good. the other thing that makes them good, charlie, is that -- and one of the reasons this is going to be more difficult than forcing al quaida out of afghanistan -- you hear comparisons made, right, let's do the same thing -- is back to this they are a state idea. so they're embedded in this and they can use all the advantages of being a state, access to resources, access to people, as they -- >> rose: okay, part of that -- go ahead. >> -- as they conduct military operations and eventually try to protect themselves, they can use all the resources of being a state. >> rose: part of it is revenue from oil on the open market including to assad. >> yes. >> rose: and part of that comes from robb

so the only answer in iraq is to get the sunni tribes to fight against isis.nly way that happens, now we are talking about politics in iraq, the only way the sunni believeight is if they that once they fight and get rid of isis, they will have the say in the iraqi government. charlie: so somebody has to promise them they will have a say. who can make that promise? is our body prepared? mr. morell: he does not have the political clout to deliver on anything. he is extremely weak charlie:. -- extremely weak. charlie: with the iranians allow him to make that promise? mr. morell: i think it is in iran's interest to maintain the territorial integrity of iraq. i think it is in iran's interest prices to be defeated -- for isis to be defeated by the sunni tribes. we probably need to have that conversation with them, we are not. i think that is the way iran views it. what has to happen, i think the political solution in iraq is a good dose of federalism, so a decentralization of power -- charlie: less power in baghdad, more power in the provinces. kurds, shia, and sunn

i s a in the book, there is no memorial for iraq and afghanistan. until there is, section 60 is the memorial. so you see people still in the service, they come to visit their friends, it is the focal point for families who have lost family members in iraq or afghanistan. >> they will not do a memorial because everyone is focused on that? >> every war we ever had has the memorial and iraq and afghanistan, it takes a long time. look at the vietnam memorial. it took 20 or 30 years for that to take root. it takes time for things to settle down, for skies to begin healing, focus on that sort of thing. iraq and afghanistan are too recent for there to be any memorial at the moment. >> the museum in quantico opening iraq and afghanistan in 2018, i am not aware of anyone else's building, have you been in touch with people about that? >> i have not. that is a great museum and anyone who hasn't missed it happened recommended it. it is the best. iraq and afghanistan, it should. that is another thing. section 60 is characteristic of the most recent wars. the mari

the guy who created al quaida in iraq is a jordanian. brought in all these people from the surrounding countries. iraqis began to feel they were fighting two occupations, an american one and a jihadi international. three, these guys monopolize the grey, brack and white economies which western iraq and eastern syria enriched themselves for centuries. the people who lived there entire lives are being told what to do by 18-year-old tunisians or by iraqis brought in from iraq. remember, this franchise began as a foreign-led franchise and became iraq-ized over the last decade. >> what should we do? should we admire this? >> no, you needs to understand it to defeat it. there is a fundamental vol vecialt to i.s.i.s. >> i agree with that. which is the people on the ground do not want to be lorded over which them but they need an alternative. >> rose: which is what happened in the awakening and the search. >> what is happening in mosul is a battle which will happen in the next month, i hope. there will will be abalinings lions and this is what's

it's the same madness that has slaughtered the innocent from nigeria to sinai and lebanon to iraq. hat turns all of us. and that's why for more than a year the united states, france, and our coalition of some 65 nations have been united in one mission to destroy these isil terrorist and defeat their vile i'dology. >> what is your reaction to turkey shooting down russian plane today? >> well, first of all, we're still getting the details of what happened and i expect to be in communications, potentially, directly with president and everyone some time over the next several days. >> turkey like every country has r has a right to defend its territory and its air space. i think it's very important for us right now to make sure both the russians and the turks are talking to each other to find out exactly what happened and take measures to discourage any kind of escalation. i do think that this points to an on-going problem with the russian operations in the tense that they're operating very close to a turkish border, and they are going after moderate opposition that are supported by not o