certainly, the telephone metadata had been disclosed by the "new york times" and then partially declassified by president bush in late 2005. there was conversation out there. congress can do that and that should happen. there could be public hearings as there are now public hearings about competing versions of the lawstial fixes for the that we have. yes, a portion of this is classified. exactly how it works is classified. why do we want to tip our playbook to the bad guys? that can be explained to the public, too. want show that americans conflicting things. one thomas they want there -- but they really are not conflicting things. one, they want their privacy protector. secured also want to be and they want laws to catch the bad guys that have plans to hurt us. the debate about purposes and framework is properly in the public domain. it should be made clear in the of how the watch works will be kept classified because we don't want to tip our hand. but again, if there is adequate safeguards and there is transparency in disclosing, as has been proposed, how many searches have been made, how

that would mean a police officer write down the reason for a stop and frisk as we do for the telephone metadata. only one of 22 supervisors approve the stopped and frisked before it would happen. and in our case, the data is all anonymous as opposed to the stop and frisk the point in front of you. the stop and frisk standard we have post in query audits every 90 days, as when a police department audits every 90 days what happens. and we also report to court every 30 days and get it free authorized every 90 days. so while yes, in a legal sense, the legal standard in the lives from the terry stop standard i think just those factors alone distinguished the use of that standard in this context and clearly evidence that the far, far more regulated and rigorous process than is feasible in the search context. >> thank you. i'm going to open with kind of a general question. since the revelation of the 215 program, which wasn't secret program before, they're had been as you well know a plethora of suggested reforms or suggested changes etc.. i'm interested in whether or not you think any of these sugges

the n.s.a.'s telephone metadata spying program and what comes out of that hearing could have enormous impacts on how the n.s.a. currently operates joining me now to talk more about the case and its consequences is bred max kaufman legal fellow with the american civil liberties union national security project welcome to the show thanks for having me so break it down for us what's at the core of what the a.c.l.u. will be arguing in court tomorrow. so we're in court tomorrow challenging the section to fifteen bulk phone record collection program as you just described it was the first revelation by edward snowden he revealed the secret court order from the foreign intelligence surveillance court. ordered the collection of all the to less than the mehta data as you said call detail records of all the verizon business network services customers for a ninety day period and we very quickly learned that that was not the only such order and it had not been the program had been going on for about seven years before that disclosure by mr snowden and so it's really quite remarkable where we're at right now w

certainly, the telephone metadata had been disclosed by the "new york times" and then partially declassified by president bush in late 2005. there was conversation out there. congress can do that and that should happen. there could be public hearings as there are now public hearings about competing versions of the lawstial fixes for the that we have. yes, a portion of this is classified. exactly how it works is classified. why do we want to tip our playbook to the bad guys? that can be explained to the public, too. want show that americans conflicting things. one thomas they want there -- but they really are not conflicting things. one, they want their privacy protector. secured also want to be and they want laws to catch the bad guys that have plans to hurt us. the debate about purposes and framework is properly in the public domain. it should be made clear in the of how the watch works will be kept classified because we don't want to tip our hand. but again, if there is adequate safeguards and there is transparency in disclosing, as has been proposed, how many searches have been made, how

s sole example of the successful use of the mass collection of telephone metadata while and was convicted of sending the terrorist organization al-shabaab eighty five hundred dollars to support jihad but in july after edward snowden leaked documents on the n.s.a. surveillance programs the f.b.i. testified in a congressional hearing that its surveillance of moland was crucial in determining his criminality with this revelation while an attorney filed for a retrial in september saying keeping the evidence used against the wall and its secret violated due process investigative journalist marcy wheeler spoke with us yesterday about whether edward snowden's leaks benefited mollen part of me actually wonders whether he would have ever been indicted were it not for the government's need to have a success story here because we know as of two thousand and nine they hadn't had any we know that they were boasting about having. preliminary investigations we know that in two thousand ninety s b i said this guy isn't worst worth indicting because the reasons she's sending money to somalia have nothing

the n.s.a.'s bulk telephone metadata collection which we know targets millions of americans as well as the n.s.a. has collection of americans internet data under the prism program both those programs were revealed by edward snowden u.s. district court judge richard leon some in department of justice lawyers to defend those programs against larry klayman a lawyer for the conservative group freedom watch he's filed two lawsuits against him a cena seeking for a broad preliminary injunction to put an end to those programs immediately and this appears to be a case that judge leon is very much interested in hearing back in october as government lawyers push for delays judge leon. doubt saying i don't want to hear anything about vacations weddings days off forget about it this is a case that the pinnacle of public national interest pentacle all hands twenty four seven no excuses department of justice the n.s.a. the allied government agencies that have an interest in this have had four months to think through its position that's a lot of time now an interesting note about judge leon in two thousand and

the n.s.a.'s bulk telephone metadata collection program which we know targets millions of americans as well as the n.s.a. is collection of americans internet data under its prism program both programs were revealed by edward snowden and u.s. district court judge richard leon summoned department of justice lawyers to defend those programs against the larry klayman a lawyer for the conservative group freedom watch he's filed two lawsuits against the n.s.a. and is asking for a broad preliminary injunction to put an end to those programs immediately and this appears to be a case that judge leon is very much interested in hearing back in october as government lawyers pushed for de lay's judge leon lashed out so. i don't want to hear anything about vacations weddings days off forget about it this is a case at the pinnacle of public national interest pinacle all hands twenty four seven no excuses the department of justice the n.s.a. the allied government agencies that have an interest in this have had four months to think through its position that's a lot of time an interesting note about judge leon in t

one of the things the government collects his telephone metadata for terrorism purposes by the court and the 700 to programming is his electronic communications service providers and therefore did television -- television surveillance sections today hearing is possible recommendations regarding these programs as well as the operation of the surveillance court. just to be clear it does not necessarily represent their views or those of sobor the purpose is to explore a wide range of recommendations to assessed possible unintended consequences. the board believes in is in the best place to make these decisions with the options for another first panel will consist of officials of varying degrees of responsibility and after the first panel be will take a lunch break. this afternoon the second panel will include a former head change and to lawyers who have appeared before the court one on the government side and by each will post questions for each panel and the 5 million crowns for the hitherto. mayor urged to permit stickiest exchanges of views. this program is recorded in a transcript w

spying activities of the two issues at hand today where the and he says bulk telephone metadata collection which we know targets millions of americans as well as the mrs collection of americans internet data under the prism program both programs were revealed by edward snowden the u.s. district court judge richard leon some in department of justice lawyers to defend those programs against larry klayman a lawyer for the conservative group freedom watch he's filed two lawsuits against the n.s.a. and is asking for a broad preliminary injunction to put an end to those programs immediately and this appears to be a case that judge leon is very much interested in hearing back in october as government lawyers push for delay. these judge leon lashed out saying i don't want to hear anything about vacations weddings days off forget about it this is a case at the pinnacle of public national interest pinacle all hands twenty four seven no excuses the part of justice the n.s.a. and the allied government agencies that have an interest in this have had four months to think through its position that a lot

the telephone metadata program geared at foreign terrorists is one thing.ess has a couple of approaches to narrow it. i don't think it should be eliminates because i think it will be back bigger than ever if we get attacked. there's a separate thing, an executive order. i write about this in today's "washington post." >> it's a great piece. >> thank you very much. it was issued by president reagan and has been updated a couple of times, that authorizes our government to listen, to learn foreign government's intentions. that's where this alleged cell phone stuff comes from. that stuff order doesn't have the force of law. congress could review that, too. congress knows about it. i surely knew about it. and narrow that as well. the point i make in the "washington post" and i think you would all agree, is about crisis management 101. i won 17 elections for the house. >> get in front of it. >> get in front of it. primary and general elections. i was there for nine terms. get in front of it. our government knows the colossal amount of information snowden has. we

the intelligence community has defended a lot of these both data collection programs by saying hey just metadata private companies hold the stuff on your telephone company holds the stuff you're not a company all the stuff should we even trust private companies with this data out of all these revelations should or should private companies think of alternatives when it comes to storing data and how they handle requests for just thirty seconds . i think we need to reform substantial reform to protect ourselves from corporations gathering this information and selling it or providing it to the government it violates all of our rights whether it's by the government or by corporations is a grave site or from an interrupt democracy thank you. thank you so much. time for tonight it's the good the bad and the very very critically ugly the good rolling jubilees as we mentioned earlier in the show the offshoot of the occupy wall street movement has now paid off over fifteen million dollars in crushing personal debt private debt is a dead weight on economic recovery and needs to be fought if we want to restore the prosperity of the middle class and the amou

the telephone m.e.d.i.c. program, maybe i should just start with a success odyssey the panel is well versed in this program, only involves telephone metadata. does not involve any content of telephone calls. does not involve any identifying subscriber information and an essay does not collect any location. this tool is used about as a discovery to in order to to discover, on earth potential is to domestic to the international threat but if such tips are evidenced when over to the fbi for further investigation. i think though that in the public debate there's been a lot of discussion of name applaud without this tool inevitably what happened and i think that's probably not the right question to ask. from the intelligence community's perspective, intelligence is a function that is brought together by lots of different tools that work and complement one another, and i would also ask, suggest that any particular plot, its rich are going to find a situation where some particular event was only unearthed or only stop a result of one particular intelligence tool. anything that probably misleads the debate in terms of the value of the program. but

the nsa is doing is collecting metadata. what the newspapers have not told you is the metadata is constitutionally on effective -- unprotected. it does not belong to you, it belongs to telephone companies. companies can do what they want with it except give it to a federal officer without being compelled to do so. that is one thing. i will say that when i argued for the creation of that 215 of theticle patriot act, when i argued for that, i never dissipated -- i do not think anybody anticipated -- is beingbe used as it used today. we look at it as being something that would target a single person for something. that is another thing that is happening. if you take the program and work it backwards to 9/11. if we had had the opportunity at llateto: -- to co telephone numbers, phone numbers, and frequent flyer numbers, none of which is constitutionally protected, we could have discovered all 19 hijackers in the u.s. i am not telling you we would have prevented 9/11 from happening. all of themscovered here and we have been following them and watching them and sell them down the airplanes, 99% certain that what would have happened is the fbi agents who were following them would ha

and this is in terms of the media and we now have section 402 and there is a full collection pull collection of e-mail metadata under the usa patriot act and we have seen telephone international communications as well. we have seen a corresponding movement of activity and there is a lot in congress on a lot going on as well. and we have hundreds of pages of information from the director of national intelligence, some of that was in response to a lawsuit in california and some of it was not. and included in this last name is analyzing thought deeply for two important opinions. it includes regarding the e-mail of the metadata collection under section 402. there is also the release of the 2011 version of the u.s. 2006 briefing of the metadata program and so on. there's a lot in there that is happening. and this includes senator leahy and congressman sensenbrenner and there are actually two dozen bills before congress that are pending with regard to the foreign intelligence surveillance act and at the same time in the court, there are now 16 lawsuits that are working their way through the courts and the supreme court denied this and the same day the government put t

the newspapers have not told you is the metadata isn't constitutionally protected. it is third-party information. it does not belong to you. it belongs to the telephonepanies in the telephone companies can do anything they want with it except to give it to a federal officer without being compelled to do so. that's one thing. i will say that when i argued for the creation of that statute as the article to 15 of the patriot act, when i argued for that one, i never anticipated and i don't think anybody anticipated it would be used as it was being used today. we look at it as being something that would target a single person for some dang. so that is another thing that's happening. but if you take the program and work it backwards a bit to 9/11, if we had the opportunity to 9/11 to collate telephone messages, public addresses and frequent flyer numbers, none of which is constitutionally protected, we would have had the possibility of discovering all 19 hijackers in the united states. now i'm not telling you we would've prevented 9/11 from happening because if we had discovered all of them here and we had been following them and watching them inside and g

the media. we now find a from yesterday's release of information section 402, there was a bulk collection of e-mail metadata under the u.s.a. patriot act. we've seen for leaders telephone calls and international conditions as well. in the executive branch we've seen a corresponding movement of activity. there's a lot in congress and a lot going on in the courts as well. on the executive branch we had yesterday of release of hundreds of pages of information from the director of national intelligence. some of that was in response to a foia lawsuit, the electronic frontier foundation had lodged in california. some of it was not. it was simply to increase transparency about the process. included in this information, it's too soon of course for us to analyze and deeply about what these documents are but included are two very important opinions. won by judge colleen, the other by judge john bates of the foreign intelligence surveillance court. regarding the e-mail may be data collection program under section four '02 of fisa. there's also the release of the 1986 and 2011 version of euros sago intelligence directive 18. the government initial 2006 in support of the program an