was that the irs council or was it the treasury general counsel? >> actually, sir, it was in june, june 42012. again, in terms of a regular setting that i have with a meeting i should say that i had with the general counsel of the department of the treasury. i know you're talking about your briefing. i'm talking about a reference in your report that the council was briefed by somebody. i take for granted it was somebody within the eo. this was an exchange on the practice that was going on, that the council at the irs was knowledgeable in 2011, am i correct? >> sir, it was just pointed out to me that attorneys within the office of chief counsel within the irs were briefed on -- >> so the chief counsel of the irs understood what the practice was that was going on within the eo of these applications, correct? >> i was not at that briefing, sir, but i don't know the extent to which they receive information. >> well here again, before your investigation started by your investigation -- your investigation concluded that the general counsel of the irs new

it reports up to the treasury. so the secretary of the treasury is now going to be running whatever transition and whatever criminal investigations and civil investigations regarding the irs. the last point is, the president is going to say some more about this tomorrow. we may learn more tomorrow. remember the fbi is coming in. they're probably already in the building from the justice department. so i don't think we've heard the last of it. i'm prepared to say i thought the president did the right thing in firing miller. i hope he appoint a new director post-haste to straighten out this irs matter. >> exactly. and ayman javers, he did not go there. he did not make any announcement on who a new acting director would be, merely, mr. miller has been fired. your reaction, ayman. >> it's similar to the written statement the president put out, except this was on camera. the key difference, what he said, i am angry about it. he made it an emotional story t. president has been criticized for being too formal, liamistic. >>

i was not in the treasury at the time. it is also not in my area of responsibility. >> is it your sense that when a major organization is engaged in long standing money laundering, which they have admitted to, and they are given a free pass on criminal persecution, that draws into question whether or not there are organizations that are above the law. what does that convey to ordinary americans? >> i have testified on a number of occasions. my point of view is, no one is above the law. >> i would encourage you to weigh in, because your world is a world involving large financial institutions, so there is an overlap between your role in this regard. i want to turn to the ig report. senator menendez noted that we have this unusual situation for the statute of the law says that donations will be used exclusively for charitable activities. but the irs regulation says, and this is the most bizarre thing i have encountered in public life, that the word exclusively means primarily. how is it acceptable that an irs regulation compl

> it would be secretary lew. >> the secretary of the treasury. the other thing is, let me ask you, there's been two people -- were you terminated or fired? are you getting ready to retired? i was asked to resign and i will retire. >> under what basis do you feel like you're getting asked and one other person got asked but it seems like there is other people in cincinnati and washington and other parts that have not been held accountable? >> i'm not sure what the question is, sir. if i could answer it and tell me if i'm not answering it correctly. >> go ahead. >> we're not done yet. we have the report. we have the sense of the facts. now is the time for those that remain, including the incoming, acting commissioner, mr. werfel to take those actions. >> it's been brought up with a couple of the ladies that work with you, what is being done about those two? there's a lot of concern about them. they ran a large operation and it seems to be at the heart of the issues. i think it has to be done in an aggressive, clear way in the next week or two. >> i d

what i would like to suggest we go right to the treasury secretary. you know, we had to change the schedule. senator johanns has to leave, secretary lew had to readjust. so i'd like to go right to him, comments you'd like to him, comments you'd like to make, and then we can hold down the fort. then i'll go down to my questions, and we'll follow the regular order. does that sound like a good way? >> that sounds like a -- >> mr. secretariesome. >> thank you very much, chairwoman mikulski, members of the committee. i appreciate this opportunity to speak about the treasury budget, and i'd just like to say that i am sorry my friend, senator lautenberg, isn't here today, and i only wish him well and that he returns soon. i want to start by thanking the talented public servants at the department of treasury. tear thoughtful, dedicated, focused, tear goal is to further the mission of the department and the american people. it's really my honor to work with them. and i'd like to begin with an overview on the economy and then get into the treasury budget. our e

it is my understanding that the treasury secretary, the set up at the treasury, the irs commissioner reports to the treasury secretary through the deputy secretary of the treasury. is that correct? >> that is correct. who was deputy secretary of the treasury in 2012? >> the current deputy secretary. >> have you talked to him about the irs situation? >> yes, i have. >> did he relate to you any knowledge that he may have had about what was going on in cincinnati when the irs was targeting these conservative groups? >> he and i both received the ig's report at the same time last tuesday. we have had numerous conversations about it since then. >> you testified you met with the inspector general in march, several months back, shortly after taking office and the inspector general presented a list of ongoing investigations, including the irs targeting >>ese conservative groups. what he indicated to me was there was an audit taking place of the 501(c) four determination unit. he did indicate there were potentially -- >> did you pursue that -- did you ask why they would do such a thing or any

dividend payments to fannie and freddie are paying the treasury if that ever overcomes the amount that they were sent to prop them up then maybe the becomes an option for the government to actually spin them off recapitalize fannie and freddie for the housing finance system in the future without fannie and freddie are required to cut their investment portfolios by fifteen percent per year now if the companies do go private again could this hurt the company well those that wind down is more in their investment portfolio it's the private mortgage bonds the whole so mortgages that they've built up in their portfolios to help finance the entire mortgage market leading up to the crisis. so they could they still can buy and package mortgages into bonds and sell them to the private market i think that part of the bailout procedure. stipulations is more to just keep them centered on what they are supposed to do which is finance home loans for people. not so much get into the wall street game of buying and selling private mortgage bonds and trying to trade on that market ok now these are men sa

] if it's the treasury, ignore -- the treasury does not directly connect with you. >> okay. kay, fine. i just don't know about that. if that's so, that's consistent with the proposition that there's a lot of electronic activity by the treasury. it's just not by e-mail. thank you all. [applause] >> you're watching booktv on c-span2, 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. >> and now from our recent visit to yuma, arizona, with time warner cable, our local partner, we hear from a local author whose book "postrevolutionary chicana literature" talks about the impact of chicana women in literature and the unique role they play. >> i believe that chicano writers historically are very interested in the day-to-day lives of real people, in real places. so, for example, anna castillo of chicago, many, many texas women writers are embracing a sense of place that is part of identity. so when i think of other feminist writers i've worked with, let's say some of the great ones, betty friedan or anybody like that, i think that sometimes a criticism that could be made is that

ceramica would be the secretary lew. >> secretary of treasury. the other thing is -- let me ask you a there's been two people that have been -- were you terminated or fired? what happened? are you getting ready to retire? >> i was asked to resign and i will retire under the rules. >> on what basis do you feel like you are getting asked and maybe one other person i guess was asked but it seems like there's a lot of other people ideally in cincinnati and washington and other parts that have not been held accountable. >> i'm not sure what the question is to be if i can answer we are not done yet. we are not. we have the treasury inspector general's report. we have this sense of the fact. now is the time for those that remain, including the incoming acting commissioner to take those actions. >> let me mention this. it's been brought up with a couple of the ladies that work with sarah ingram. what is being done about those two? because there is a lot of concern about that. they ran a large operation and it seems to be a part of the issues today. i thin

the ig alerted the treasury in may or june. have you confirmed that the deputy secretary and general counsel word -- by the inspector general back in 2012? >> congressman i think we have made clear that the deputy secretary was aware of the fact that an audit was underway. he did not become familiar with the details of it. >> do you know whether or not the deputy secretary, do you know who if anyone did the investigation back at that time? >> we have over the last few days made clear that there were as appropriate conversations among staff where the fact of an investigation was clear and subsequently in the last few weeks as draft reports were being either, the reports themselves were available and the conversations but there was no action taken by anyone in the treasury department in any way to interfere with the inspector general's report. that was the number one goal. >> i understand. did you contact the irs commissioner about the false testimony that the commissioner had get to congress a month before? >> commissioner i told

they had to take into account when they were deciding to release that fifty billion dollars to the treasury. you had to really look out across a whole lot of factors there and some early fed meeting showed that they might be easing a little bit this summer and later in the sober there's talk of tapering off a little bit i'm sure those accountants took into effect that policy choice because it has such a big impact on their profits and i think the government has taken to a lot of. circumstances as to the future policies afghanistan friday for now the terms of the bailouts stated that increase profits will trigger higher dividends so how much of the fifty nine billion dollars is due to higher dividend payments are how much of it how much will they have paid they don't see a profit so the the fifty nine billion dollars fifty point and it just about is from the deferred tax assets they set aside the accounting gimmick that they pulled on top of that was the actual profits that the company made was around nine billion dollars it was one of the it was the most profitable quarter in the company's

he was a political operative for the president now running treasury. does this put an additional spotlight on him? >> there has been a spotlight on the irs for years and used as the political tool. there are a number of different organizations, the deal lustful operating under the labor department whether they are career officials or known as non-political folks and they are career people or analyst that process tax reforms and tax returns or things of that nature. how much of that of a political influence that are not supposed to be political for some time. gerri: we will have additional responsibilities with obamacare. the irs has almost 90,000 a bigger budget than the fda, fbi, and this is a ggoup of people to be reckoned -- reckoned with. as people sit back with the bureaucracy and the irs says the attorneys graduating from law school is the biggest law firm in the country. the irs has a huge response ability when it comes to the president's health care lot and charged with enforcing the individual mandate, the requirement that forces almost everybo

george, you are the inspector general of the treasury is that correct? >> actually there are three inspectors general within the depth of the treasury. i am the inspector general exclusively focused on the irs on the system of tax administration. >> over the irs. very good. you were appointed by then president bush is that correct? >> yes, correct. >> and you state in your report that no one outside the irs was involved in this political targeting of not for profit organizations, is that correct? >> that is the finding of this particular audit, sir. >> your audit, your findings are that no outside groups were involved, correct? >> of this particular -- yes. as of now. that's our -- >> mr. george, who was the last presidentially appointed irs commissioner? >> it was douglas schulmann. >> appointed by then president george w. bush is that correct? >> that is correct, sir. >> and mr. schulmann was commissioner when these improper and outrageous activities that both sides of the aisle recognize as being outrageous and improper, when they occurred, correct? >>

the i.g. investigation. >> do you believe your treasury source? this is one of those stories, especially to the irs, everybody lies. i'm not willing to make that statement about the treasury, but a lot of people have not told the truth. >> that's exactly right, larry. no one on capitol hill seems to be buying what stephen hill said today. the deputy secretary won't. the secretary will have a lot of questions to answer when he comes to capitol hill next week. if the obama administration knew about potential corruption at the irs, and they did not talk, they will by a cuesed of playing politics. stephen miller today was defiant. >> very good, robert costa as always, time for your wrap-up. >>> our next guest chief deputy peter roscum of illinois had heated exchanges. here's one example. please listen. >> what day did the conversation take place? >> i'd have to look back on my notes on that, sir. >> you have notes on that? >> i'd have to try to find them. >> why did you say you had notes if you don't think you have notes. >> sir, please. please. >> do

>> the treasury. no. we shared with the irs. i do not have that dropped in front of me. -- draft in front of me. do you have an official date for that event for the record? >> march 28, 2013. >> that is the date with the irs. actings the commissioner. >> i have monthly meetings with the commissioner. >> outside of the office of the inspector general, the f -- before or after march 28, any other drafts circulated? >> and the question is whether my office shared drafts, we would have shared with the irs, i believe. >> this set of timelines you gave us, wheeling have the ig, including acting commissioner and draft issued the next day. any other days in which discussion or preliminary portions we shared with anyone outside of your direct force? of an audit, quest there is a back-and-forth of sharing of information between the subject of the audit and -- >> mr. shulman knows nothing. mr. werfel knows nothing. can you make available to us forth discussions that occurred with anyone so we have a complete record of who knew what and whe

as i understand it the president has requested for the treasury department $13,177,000,000, for the whole department of treasury. and within that, there's a request for irs. and mr. miller, that request is for 12000,861,000,000, is that correct? and then however, when we enacted fiscal '13 finally on march 27 with incredible bipartisan support, we were able to pass the continuing funding resolution. that was 11,793,000,000, i believe, is that correct? >> yes ma'am. >> budge what is sequestered hit of 594 million, and then because you're a big agency another 2%. so don't we have across-the-board cuts of 618 million? that sounds -- 620 sounds right. >> $620 million coming out of the irs with its technological challenges. one, cybersecurity, the other technological and modernization in order you to receive data and to do the job we ask you to do. then you have personnel. and from what i gather your personnel is a highly talented one, because requires people with business, accounting, and other pretty technical skills am i correct in that? >> the vast majority of our folks are very profession

not just the white house or treasury did intervene in the inspector general's audit. i hope in anticipating this question and understanding there was confusion about it i hope that supplies the answers. >> if you could clarify a couple of things. someone was seen in the counsel's office. >> white house counsel cathy romer was notified on april 24. there was also a notification as part of a series of items, ig related items from treasury that this was upcoming and again very topline but weis haus -- white house counsel was not notified. either within treasury or the counsel's office but the same notification process. see who all decides who will be told about this? >> members of the senior staff. i don't have it for you right now. >> last week when this all first came out you said -- was told very broadly but you didn't mention anything else about other staff. you didn't mention more specific details including some of the words that the irs office used to target groups. is that what you were telling us today consistent with your statement talking very broadly about thi

then he says there will be an investigation from the treasury. well, that just means the left hand of the government investigating the right hand. he did say he'll cooperate with congress, but then he has the chutzpa to essentially warn republicans not to make this into a political event when what we're talking about is the irs applying political criteria inexcusably unconstitutionally, probablially, in deciding who it's going to investigate. so i found in the bare minimum. it will hold him for 12 hours, but no more. >> bret: a.b.? >> well, i think charles is right, that this is the minimum he had to do. steven miller was briefed on this in 2011, when he was commissioner, in may of 2012, then july of 2012, in system asked about it, just last summer, did not divulge any information about special increase, heightened scrutiny of conservative groups even when asked about the process, whether or not that was happening. he had to go. what i disagree with charles, whether or not this is the end. it's entirely possible that the cincinnati office, which s

later in the late one nine hundred seventy s. while serving as deputy treasury secretary he worked closely with robert rubin and alan greenspan to overturn the glass steagall act and he also worked to ban proposed regulation of all privately traded derivatives he testified to congress that the parties to these kinds of contracts are largely sophisticated and financial institutions that would appear to be eminently capable of protecting themselves from fraud and counterparty and solvency. summers would go on to become the president of harvard university which boasted the largest and down that fine of any american university the fund was loaded with these very derivatives that he supported but an employee of the fund management company as ira smacked fired off a warning letter to summers about the positions and challenge of the competence of the fund managers for her trouble she was fired but she was eventually proven correct when harvard lost an astonishing twenty seven percent of his and down meant because of these a very derivative positions summers eventually

i don't know what the department of the treasury or irs. i don't know what the white house is thinking. but we have the document. we have been in dialogue with the irs for a year and a half. martha: let me ask you about the document you just held up. who does this go up to? was there any directive from the administration to say, look, we don't want these groups in our face. we want you to do what you can to stall them to keep them so we don't have to confront these groups. that's the larger assumption people are making. is there anything in that document that would prove that? >> i don't think you can prove it go to the president. what the documentation does show which is significant is it was not low-level irs agents. this was pervasive it was at the highest levels of the irs and we now know treasury, the deputy secretary of the treasury, the white house council and chief of staff were aware of the situation. and let's not forget it was democratic senators and president obama who made consistent statement about the tea party groups and cons

was in the black but only temporary the treasury released of budget figures today for april a reported one hundred twelve point nine billion dollars surplus is ahead of expectations of one hundred seven point five billion dollars for the future might not be so rosy of the treasury is expected to run a deficit again next month we'll talk about the u.s. debt and budget with abby martin the host of breaking the sat in just a bit. and what a way to close the week for jamie dimon earlier the fed began investigating j.p. morgan for energy market shenanigans and shareholders threatened to pull diamonds from the board but yesterday the state of california filed suit against the bank alleging that he knew a rampant robo signing fraud and this time it's not about mortgages but credit card debt what's next on a loan anyways as the result of the suits in the bank giant estimates it could face sixty billion dollars in losses beyond reserves already set aside that's about one wills worth of hedging. score and finally after taking years to simply define what a swap is under john brain the commodity f

>> it would be secretary lew. >> the secretary of the treasury. the other thing is, let me ask you, there's been two people -- were you terminated or fired? are you getting ready to retired? i was asked to resign and i will retire. >> under what basis do you feel like you're getting asked and one other person got asked but it seems like there is other people in cincinnati and washington and other parts that have not been held accountable? >> i'm not sure what the question is, sir. if i could answer it and tell me if i'm not answering it correctly. >> go ahead. >> we're not done yet. we have the report. we have the sense of the facts. now is the time for those that remain, including the incoming, acting commissioner, mr. werfel to take those actions. >> it's been brought up with a couple of the ladies that work with you, what is being done about those two? there's a lot of concern about them. they ran a large operation and it seems to be at the heart of the issues. i think it has to be done in an aggressive, clear way in the next week or two. >> i d

if you get an e-mail from the u.s. treasuryaying congratulations, you have won a free trip, a tour of the city of d.c. and only send $7,000, your free trip will be -- notes from the treasury department may be part of what the ordinary experience involved. the treasury department interacts with them frequently, electronic. >> it says it is the treasury, ignore the treasury, does not directly connect with you. >> fine. i just don't know about that. if that is so it is consistent with the proposition that there is a lot of electronic activity by the treasury. just not by e-mail. thank you all. [applause] >> is there a nonfiction author or book you would like to see featured on booktv? send us an e-mail at booktv@c-span.org or tweet us at twitter.com/booktv. >> what you're reading this summer? booktv wants to know. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> let us know what you are reading this summer. tweet us at booktv, post it on our facebook page or send us an e-mail at booktv@c-span.org. >> going to change how we live, work and think and our journey begins w

of the treasury. and the former irs commissioner will also be invited to testify at that hearing on wednesday of next week. they're going to announce that later this morning. that will join a long list of other congressional hearings, house, ways and means is expected to look into this, as well as over on the senate side, the permanent select committee on investigation. so now we have at least three committees here that will be digging into this irs hearing and what i am told about this oversight committee hearing is that aides will be looking into the question of where did this all begin?

the healthcare law. should you know her? >> typically i deal with treasury staff that deal with others with the irs and policy matters. but if i can correct the fact that just described, my understanding -- and fax matter and we have to make sure they are correct -- her response abilities at the time during awareness when this was known was working on the affordable care act. >> so you know of her then. >> i know of her. >> do you think it would be appropriate for her to remain in the position as now head of the rollout of the healthcare? >> if the facts are she was not in the position -- the vision taking day-to-day responsibility of this at the time in question, then the question is, is she doing her job on the affordable care act effectively. the new acting commissioner i am sure will look at that. >> i can tell you, the american people are not trusting of this administration right now. >> the time of the gentleman has expired. i would like to thank the secretary for appearing today. thank him for testimony. without objection, all members will have five l

the treasury staffer on the job providing value for the taxpayers. they do things extinction experts at the office of foreign assets control target sources of finance is to disrupt iran's pursuit of wiping mass destruction. the intelligence analysts in the financial enforcement network followed the financial paper trail to make sure that crime doesn't pay for terrorist financing, organized crime for narcotraffickers. the payment specialist at the sms insurers get to the senior disabled veterans. we could go through agency after agency and these are on the job serving america. i'm deeply troubled by what we face during sequester and i'm interested in the impact of sequester and mr. lu we look for your commentary about it. i have heard firsthand because i have world-class treasury department agencies in my state from irs to assess mass another report agent deeds. we are also interested in the impact of sequester as you sit on our economy and the failure to get our budget clear so we can keep our economy on track. we look forward to your commentary admi

you know, we know that the treasury department now knew about it. say it was an investigation, there's nothing we could do. but look, they were having hearings on the hill about this, and a lot of this was being brought to light. to me, if the white house is really concerned about it, it does seem like it's something they could tamp down if they wanted to. >> chris: karl, a couple of questions for you. you were one of the undersros gn crossroads, the super pac. first of all, why should a group like crossroads gps, so deeply involved in politics, qualify for tax exempt status as a social welfare group, and didn't? whether there's a surge or not, didn't the irs have a problem in the wake of the citizens united superior court ruling for qualifying under the tax code? >> look, 501c4s have been around for a long time, and the democrats on the left have used these for years, these social welfare groups to do some politics and a lot of social welfare. naacp voter fund, for example, ran a $10 miion advertising blitz in 2000 against george w. bush. the leagu

the treasury department didn't tell anyone in the white house. the treasury department also said that all secretary wolin was performed of was -- informed of was that such an investigation was beginning, and gave the same heads-up to congress, including congressman issa. issa said he didn't talk about it publicly, is when you're dealing with a nonpartisan agency like the irs, you wait until you have the actual facts before you go out and make assertions. >> chris: again, i want to make it clear, you're saying nobody after that meeting between russell george and neal wolin, nobody told the irs that this irs ig investigation was going on? >> that's what the treasury department said and that's what i'm telling you. >> chris: the rise of the tea party, the application for tax exempt group was a big point in the wake of the citizens united ruling by the supreme court, a big issue for democrats. in september of 2010, max baucus, the democrat chair of senate finance called on the irs to investigate groups applying for tax exempt status. in 2007, senator

in april of 2012, a final report got to the treasury secretary, and the deputy treasury secretary. was in march of this year that others inside the treasury department got word, and then in april that the treasury secretary found out. i'm told that treasury officials never told anyone outside the treasury department about it. so that includes the white house. the problem, wolf, for officials here, is that, as they answer some questions, that only raises other questions, and so the answer for the president today was just to get out of town. sticking to his pre-crisis schedule, president obama hit the road, visiting a manufacturing plant. >> others may get distracted by chasing every fleeting issue that passes by, but the middle class will always be my number one focus. >> reporter: and a baltimore elementary school. >> did you see me on tv? >> reporter: an apparent effort to show the controversies in washington aren't changing his agenda. but the outcry on capitol hill is only growing. the first hearing over the irs scandal took place friday. >> why did the irs repeatedly target the

it's in the irs and you are the secretary of the treasury. don't you want to know why these people did this? >> congressmen, i have said many times and will repeat, i am committed, the president is committed to making sure we figure out what happened, hold people accountable and make sure it never happens again. of course i care, but i also believe it would be inappropriate to stand betweenan ig and an investigation. have you spoken to anybody treasury or the iris about this since you found out about it how much in terms of why these people were doing this, what were they trying to accomplish? have you had any conversations like that, it's a simple question. >> since the ig report came out, i've had many conversations about what steps we needed to take. step number one was getting the resignation of the commissioner. step two is getting a new commissioner. i will meet after this hearing with the new commission. i will meet with him on his first day. >> have you learned anything about the motivations of this? >> i think we all have the same set

. >> you are the inspector general of the treasury. generalthe inspector exclusively focused on the irs. >> you were appointed by president bush, is that correct correct? that >> you are not aware of targeting of not-for-profit organizations it? your findings are that no .utside groups were involved >> that is correct. >> who was the last presidentially appointed er?mission and it chulman.as s >> he was present when these .ctivities were committed is the correct? >> yes. >> the last political appointee everson, is at ?orrectable he was also appointed by president george w. bush. it is believed that groups like the naacp, progressive churches and environmental groups were targeted by the irs. mr. miller, while you were appointed acting commissioner at the irs, you are a career civil servant. is that not the case? >> yes. >> you are not a political appointee. >> i am not. >> what i'm trying to basically the blanc is the notion or idea -- tryin gto debunk are the nonfactual statements by chair camp to link these candles to the white house

the healthcare law. should you know her? >> typically i deal with treasury staff who deal with others with the irs and policy matters. but if i can correct the fact that just described, my understanding -- and facts matter and we have to make sure they are correct -- her responsibilities at the time when awareness of this became known was working on the affordable care act. >> so you know of her then. >> i know of her. >> do you think it would be appropriate for her to remain in the position as now head of the rollout of the healthcare? >> if the facts are she was not in the position -- taking day- to-day responsibility of this at the time in question, then the question is, is she doing her job on the affordable care act effectively. the new acting commissioner i am sure will look at that. >> i can tell you, the american people are not trusting of this administration right now. >> the time of the gentleman has expired. i would like to thank the secretary for appearing today. thank him for his testimony. without objection, all members will have five legislati

the irs, if it does not go to the treasury department, that will probably be contained. the ap story is going to die soon. don't forget, this was not done by a whistleblower. it was not a whistleblower that went to the ap. it was somebody who was bragging and boasting. it was hubris. this is something obama has to be concerned about. it is his own people. this happened to his own people. >> winners and losers, charles. >> the irs is the only one that has the capacity to be a fatal one. i do not think it will reach obama. the council knew about it three weeks before. he said that. did he tell nobody in the white house? if it reaches the white house it is serious. but it is the one that everybody feels strongly about. if you have a letter from the irs, you know it is not good news. it is not happy birthday. power can be ruthless and arrogant. in terms of the public that is the one. in terms of the press, they are upset about the ap. they have been obsequious but all of a sudden they are very upset. it is their own prerogative and privacy. i think he asked to make his peace

>> my organization, the treasury inspector general for tax administration. >> well, in conclusion, i would say if we could get the irs to follow the law and the regulation that implemented it, we wouldn't have this problem in the future. >> sender, i agree with you but i also think it's very complicated. and it's unfortunaunfortuna te this issue has not been addressed the last couple of years with any precision, any focus, any straight thinking. and were going to have to get, have to enact some changes in statute and also irs has i think us to a better job following the statute of my personal view is this ambiguity has led to part of the problem here. >> i certainly agree. >> we have to straighten it out. next, i have senator roberts, you are next. >> thank you. listening to the responses of both of you gentlemen have provided to my colleagues on this committee, i am reminded of one of my granddaughters, age four, when she knows she's done something wrong, she just shuts her eyes and says you can't see me. well, we can all see what happened. the problem is no one is taking responsibil