what makes a difference is see themselve entimes, almost literally touch themselve entimes, shake their hand. that's why they deliver the free drug samples in person so they can look around the corner and say how did debi do in that soccer game. by the 7th time, they like you f they like you, they trust you. and if they trust you, then they might be willing to change and listen. >> rose: is any imagine anything 7, could it have been 8 or 6. >> i don't think there is a magic in 7. i think it depends on how hard what you are asking people to do, how hard it is to make the change. but there is the magic is in getting to know somebody. understand why they resist what their barriers are. >> rose: this is also about leadership do, isn't it, same thing. >> it is the idea of getting to know people so that therefore they trust you to follow you. >> right. the trouble is that everybody thinks that leadership is ultimately not scaleable. so when you ask is this a innovation that could change the world, they will say well, can i turn it into an iphone? can i turn it into an app? and if i can't, the