what on this to that theresa fallon? go ahead. well, i think it's always important to try to understand how the russians see the world. it's very different from most other people. i think that status quo, i mean seizing crimea, and over 14000 people have died in the dunbar. so the idea that nato is changing the status quo. i think the evidence is there on the ground. and as we see moscow rattling sabres outside of ukraine, it's extremely worrisome and they're using that as a way to try to change the agreement. we've seen with the agreement was signed. it's codified that nato could expand. so it's a real reading of history. it's a change of tone, and i think that the countries that have joined the un nato, for example, the baltics are very glad that they have because they're watching what russia is doing, nibbling away ukraine, threatening it. what happened in georgia, possibly what might happen in moldova. i think that these are all worrying signs for these countries, and that's why they are want to see nato. of course, i think da

theresa fallon, a director of the center for russia, europe, asia studies and joining us from oslo. glen deason, professor of international relations at the university of south eastern norway. good to have your witness. thorsten bennett, if i could stop this, by asking, does a european defense force make sense strategically? yes, sir, thanks for having me. as son, of course, it makes you teach a sense in the medium term. the question is, how to make it the reality and what realistic next. next steps are, there's a lot of political talk about european strategic autonomy about europeans teaching sovereignty. even problem is the orbit kind of pretended he is a great advocate of this and fully aligned with president the my con, that he's all in favor of strengthen europe. whereas on the rule of law and other issues, prime is there or bon undermines. ready undermine europe, or underline said it's not just the question of capabilities or capacity, but the political well, that's true. we need the political world to, to really up our game. europe does spend quite a bit on defense, but it ne

theresa fallon is director at the center for russia, europe, asia study. she says the u. s. would never agree to some of russia's demands. the 1st read of all of those who has been shocked. these are massive, asks that moscow the kremlin once so many of them. of course no one could agree to, for example, no further expansion. any countries that were included nato, since 1997 with major would have to ask with us, would have to ask permission from the kremlin to do any sort of activities. so i think that there are a lot of red lines there that the u. s. has agreed to discuss some of these issues, but these are big assets and like a sphere of influence, again that, that put in, wants to put in place just completed the summit. this kind of might give you a barometer of how some of the europeans, not all member states are members of nato, but they had said that there will be sanctions if russia continues to increase military activity in ukraine. so there are a lot of tensions. it's quite interesting the timing of all of this because who tim has come in to the 30th anniversary of