. >> host: thomas payne. >> guest: absolutely. british born. for orwell, america was -- it didn't have the things he was attached to and that are the things winston smith in 1984 is clinging to for sanity, the odd traditions, the things passed on from one generation to another, like the lyrics or a nursery rhyme or a song, old books and book stores that trade in old books. of course, some of these things are available here. >> host: little country churches war brass rubbings. >> guest: you got it. the tree in the country churchyard. those things were the bulwark against the month alightic paving over of everything by not just to tall tearannism but modern life. he hated concrete, central heating, mechanical entertainment, advertising, and all these things seemed to be coming not just from the east but from the west and the united states, and his -- in this sense there was something parochial about him. >> host: he disliked antiamericannism very much, which was beginning to become a disease on the left. >> guest: he understood it to be a kind of

. >> thomas payne in the american revolution said these are the times that try men's souls. and fdr during the civil war and great depression had similar expressions about how we need to soldier on. we needed to continue to do the right thing. we needed to reach down within ourselves for resourcefulness, fortitude. and these are times that will be remembered by future generations. >> no one should understatement where we are today. we are either going to be a decentral america solves huge problems. more importantly, necessary for the evolution of civilization there has to be a period when we get rid of what is old. particularly what is old institutionally. we make the ground fresh again for the young. >> the question of what that new order will be, is up to us and to the younger generations and it always will be. >> sean: we are back with the producers of that fill, dave b3ñ ban. we were talking in the break about what it would reallyw#b take to get america's fiscal house in order. it will take dramatic changes. it would take a change in attitude, in the culture. you think i

he also once in picking up the line from thomas payne, "these are times that try mens souls," john adams was quick to say, "these are times that try women's souls no less." she was the intellectual equal, no less, i think. she could hold her own with any of the great thinkers of her time. she knew them and they knew her. she was admiring of jefferson. she was he can treemly admiring of washington. she thought the world of george washington. she couldn't imagine how anyone possibly could replace him in the presidency and particularly her husband. and she felt so sorry for him to try and fill that gap. there were plenty who did not like john adams, who found him difficult. the count defment verchens said his pezzian tri and stubbornness -- his pesantry and stubbornness will give count to a thousand problems. adams response was "thank god he gave me stubbornness when i know i'm right." abigail thought of her husband as solid, strong. she saw in this rather strange young man when they first met and he was courting her, something very worthy. and he always spoke of her as his ballast. it is q