. >> georgetown, came back here to the new york public library, and tim healey had recruited a few of-- we were supposed to be rhodes scholars, 1959 going on 1960. >> charlie: he selected people he thought had the potential to be rhodes scholars? >> right. i went up there, my dad died my freshman year, i had been the national high school debate champion and for reasons i can't understand, i decided after my dad's death to get on the subway in brooklyn and go to my sister's school. i had no idea the social -- i went to brooklyn and i rang the door to the convent and i said to the nun "i would like to start a high school debate team here and if you let me do it i promise you the girls will win the national championship and they'll see the 48 lower states before they graduate." i had this great high school teacher that said you had to travel but we could only travel where we could drive because we were poor, "and they'll get scholarships to college and they'll all be better people for it," and for some reason in 1960 that nun said to a 17-year-old boy, "if you can get people to do it, we