but pick up those tim shipman books and flag where nigel farage, his name appears and flag where certains names appear. and i bet i can tell you who's got the

i don't know who tim shipman is. >> he's a sunday times editor, political journalist who's written a book all about the battle for brexit. >> yeah, four volumes, all out war fallout. yeah. no they're fascinating. >> well, yeah. but i still think i still think that labour are have or the left have always been sleepy about the risk from reform. they thought they were just going to sweep up the normal working people. >> yeah. normal working people don't want the sort of top working person and. well, yeah, people , the communities, the people, the communities, the communities that i came from, my dad was a building site carpenter. my granddad was a toolmaker. oh, no. and my stepfather was an open cast mine worker. and people in those working class communities, normal people care about normal things. they don't want the kind of nonsense which actually labour mps preoccupy themselves. >> steve, the danger for the tories is that they assume the pendulum will swing back, particularly if this government continues. oh, they can't assume that because the pendulum may not come back oh to, no. >>

however, i've also seen in some other interviews, for example, in tim shipman's piece in the sunday times, that there also seems to be some effort by labour to counteract this narrative, to kind of put out there that it's not going to be as bad as people might think, you know, that actually there won't be these dramatic changes and so forth. so it seems like there's there has ever caught between their two forms of their comms strategy that firstly to say that the situation is much worse than we feared. and oh dear, this requires very tough action. 22 billion black holes, but also not so much that you spook the market , not so much that you spook the market, which already seems to be happening. i mean, the price of government debt has increased and that could have a dramatic effect on our ability to borrow and fund so much of labour's manifestos. >> exactly. it's kind of this balancing act. i think what we do know, madeleine, because i see that the labour press office haven't briefed against the idea of national insurance contributions made by employers going up. i'm going to be quizzing b