uh huh... >>> lou michel is about to meet timothy mcveigh for the first of a series of interviews that will become the backbone of the only authorized biography of the oklahoma city bomber. by may of 1999, mcveigh has been convicted and sentenced to death for the oklahoma city bombing. but he's still appealing the conviction. >> mcveigh is sitting there drumming his fingers across the table, and he says, you're late. you know, timothy mcveigh considered himself a military man. i said, you're right, i'm late, but it was because of all the security checks i had to go through, and then he smiles at me and he says, i knew it was the government. >> the men spend the first several hours of the interview with basic small talk. mcveigh eventually delves into a darker place, pulling lou michel into the mindset of someone facing imminent death. >> i'm not going to go into that courtroom and curl into a fetal ball and cry just because the vict victims want me to. i've already accepted my death and in that sense, victims, you can have what you want. i'll go to my death. you can be happy, i'll be h

but then, of course, we had the 14 hurricanes, timothy mcveigh, the elian gonzalez case. i was posted outside his home in miami for a long time. every time he went to the swing set, it was a fox news alert. >> i also tried to put expenses in for mud wrestling, i didn't get them covered, did you? >> no, i didn't! >> it's a shame because it's journalism. >> brian has a fax machine at his house and he's trying to declare that the massapequa bureau for tax purposes, it hasn't worked. >> when did you say you're knee deep in politics? the depth in knowledge of politics and the way you handle that show, it seems like you've been doing it for 25 years but you're only 19. >> listen, i always aspired to file for brit's show so i pitched as many political stories as i could throughout the southeast. and then, fortunately, was

afraid of all white guys because timothy mcveigh blew up the building in oklahoma city. or he was a catholic. we put that on catholics. does that say something about all catholics? really. how do you answer a question like that? i am sorry you are wired to think that way. but i support that. i support them doing that in lower manhattan and the rabbi of that center on the board of directors of the ground zero mosque. that is a good thing for the country. >> host: we have 40 minutes left in this month's in depth. kelly in wisconsin. you are on the air. >> caller: it is a pleasure to speak to you. i will preface my remarks by saying i own all your films except americans lacquers and five of your books and try to disseminate that information to as many friends and family as i

timothy mcveigh was a terrorist in that sense. but because he was an american, nobody decided well, we have to attack america because timothy mcveigh was an american. sothis whole idea that we have to have a perpetuawar going on is only there to make sure that we are intimidated and that if you don't obey exactly what they want, that you are unpatriotic, just like what happened in world war ii. the bigger the war,the unlikely they are to underline our personal liberty. just look during world war ii how we had concentration camps for the japanese americans. once again, it was a violation of the principal of who owns that life? the people who were incarcerated didn't commit a crime, and yet it was assumed that the government owns that life and they can do what they want. the tax code is built on this assumption that the government owns your life because they say that if you are -- tax rate is 40% and i offered to limit to 30%, the people in big government come back and say you can't do that, that will cost the government to much mon

america because timothy mcveigh was a american. it's only there to make sure we're intimidated and that if you don't obey exactly what they want, that you're unpatriotic just like what happened in world war ii. and the bigger the wars, the more likely they are to undermine our personal liberties and just look at during world war ii how we had concentration camps for the japanese americans. once again, it was a violation of the principle. who owns that life, the people who were incarcerated didn't commit a crime but it was assumed the government owns that life and they can do what they want. the tax code is built on this assumption that the government owns your life. because they say if your tax rate is 40% and i offer to lower it, the people who believe in big government can't come back and say you can't do that. it will cost the government too much money but think about that. how is it going to cost the government money if we're taking your own money back or not taking enough from you. it's the assumption that they own all your in

condemn suicide bombers in the middle east for example or in other places around the world or timothy mcveigh. but why no condemnation for jamie diamond he's a suicide banker why well during tough economic times you see over and over during the housing crash what would happen people have insurance on their homes and if they could either sell it at fifty percent mark down or they could burn it and collect one hundred percent so if the u.s. economy is dead and it's not coming back and the only hope that j.p. morgan could have is like a few fees on food stamp cards well maybe it's better for them to just burn the whole thing down and collect the insurance. that doesn't it doesn't point well taken so the analogy to the housing market to be the arson scam of collecting the insurance and burning down your house so jamie diamond as a side what you're saying here is that the j.p. morgan bank is worth more to him dead than alive well apparently and so they had a lot of revenue from their killing their own bank and they don't care if they kill their employees or kill the country they don't care i remin

amendment but at that time, that in fact, we don't stereotype christians based on the behavior of timothy mcveigh or the westboro baptist church. so you don't want to do that. you don't want to encourage people liking that minister in florida that wanted to burn the koran. >> i totally agree. how would you have felt, honestly if a muslim commentator on npr had said you know something, this had been after say an african-american had committed some terrible crime. and said you know something, every time i get on a plane i see an african-american, i feel uneasy. how would you honestly have felt? >> i think it was being ridiculous. i think he was being tran densetious. they're being a provocateur in that sense because they're no such legitimacy. stop and think about it. >> are you saying you were ridiculous. >> no, i'm saying they would be ridiculous to try to draw such an analogy. remember, there is a reality after 9/11, there's a legitimate connection in this world given what happened in london, madrid between radical extreme islam and terror. if you're telling me that black people who may have com

amendment but at that time, that in fact, we don't stereotype christians based on the behavior of timothy mcveigh or the westboro baptist church. so you don't want to do that. you don't want to encourage people liking that minister in florida that wanted to burn the koran. >> i totally agree. how would you have felt, honestly if a muslim commentator on npr had said you know something, this had been after say an african-american had committed some terrible crime. and said you know something, every time i get on a plane i see an african-american, i feel uneasy. how would you honestly have felt? >> i think it was being ridiculous. i think he was being tran densetious. they're being a provocateur in that sense because they're no such legitimacy. stop and think about it. >> are you saying you were ridiculous. >> no, i'm saying they would be ridiculous to try to draw such an analogy. remember, there is a reality after 9/11, there's a legitimate connection in this world given what happened in london, madrid between radical extreme islam and terror. if you're telling me that black people who may have com

timothy mcveigh was a terrorist in that sense.but because he was an american, nobody decided well, we have to attack america because timothy mcveigh was an american. so this whole idea that we have to have a perpetual war going on is only there to make sure that we are intimidated and that if you don't obey exactly what they want, that you are unpatriotic, just like what happened in world war ii. the bigger the war, the unlikely they are to underline our personal liberty. just look during world war ii how we had concentration camps for the japanese americans. once again, it was a violation of the principal of who owns that life? the people who were incarcerated didn't commit a crime, and yet it was assumed that the government owns that life and they can do what they want. the tax code is built on this assumption that the government owns your life because they say that if you are -- tax rate is 40% and i offered to limit to 30%, the people in big government come back and say you can't do that, that will cost the government to much

timothy mcveigh was a terrorist in that sense.ut because he was an american, nobody decided well, we have to attack america because timothy mcveigh was an american. so this whole idea that we have to have a perpetual war going on is only there to make sure that we are intimidated and that if you don't obey exactly what they want, that you are unpatriotic, just like what happened in world war ii. the bigger the war, the unlikely they are to underline our personal liberty. just look during world war ii how we had concentration camps for the japanese americans. once again, it was a violation of the principal of who owns that life? the people who were incarcerated didn't commit a crime, and yet it was assumed that the government owns that life and they can do what they want. the tax code is built on this assumption that the government owns your life because they say that if you are -- tax rate is 40% and i offered to limit to 30%, the people in big government come back and say you can't do that, that will cost the government to much m

timothy mcveigh was a catholic. does that say something about all catholics?y, how do you answer a question like that? i'm sorry you're wired to think that way. but, yes, i support that. i support them doing that in lower manhattan. as does the jewish senator in manhattan, and the rabbi of that senator is on the board of directors of the ground zero mosque. so that's a good thing for the country. >> host: next call for michael moore -- we have about 40 minutes left in this month's "in depth." kelly in river falls, wisconsin. you're on the air. >> caller: good afternoon, michael. it is my great pleasure to speak to you. i'll preface my remarks by saying i own all your films except american slackers and five of your books and i try to disseminate that information to as many friends and family as i can and it's opened a lot of eyes. >> guest: thank you. >> caller: we had a little protest here in wisconsin back in february because governor walker and the republican legislature tried to steal the collective bargaining rights and there are over 100,000 people out th

timothy mcveigh blew up the federal build us because he was a right wing home grown radicals. it's in all flavor, and all those flais with bad. >> guest: what the caller pointed out here is you can have an extreme version of religion. islam is one of the greater religions as articulated, but when anyone takes those religions to extreme, in this case, islam, that's when you have terrorism, that's where you have extremists, and that's what we talk about in the book that the u.s. government is focused on, the extremist elements, be it on the right, the left, looking at these individual organizations that commit terrorism. >> host: republican from georgia, welcome, debbie. >> caller: thank you. i'm afraid my comments echo something else about sley ya law that i thought was important, and i'm concerned it's not as seriously taken by your speakers as it is by the grass roots, but i'd also like to ask they comment on the potential nuclear power in iran. >> guest: well, clearly, this is one of the great issues of foreign policy in the united states facing today is the threat that iran

oklahoma city, timothy mcveigh blew up the federal building not because he was islamist but because he was a right wing homegrown radical. terrorism comes in all flavors and they are all bad. guest:as thom pointed at, you can have an extreme version of religion. islam is a great religion, but when anyone takes that to an extreme, that is when you end up with terrorism and extremism. that is what we talked about in our book, that the government has focused on the extremist elements, be it on the right or left, looking at these individual organizations that commit terrorism. host: republican from savannah, ga., last caller. caller: i am afraid my comments will echo something comments will -- something else about sharia law. i do not think it is taken seriously by your speakers. i would also like to ask about the potential nuclear power of iran. guest: this is a great issue of foreign policy today, the threat that iran could obtain and use nuclear weapons. this is one main. the u.s. government is applying the diplomacy, trying to engage the world drew the u.n., multi- power talks cannot i

timothy mcveigh block a federal building. he was not an islamic extremist, but he was one of these right wing, home grown radicals. terrorism comes in all flavors. guest: the caller has pointed out that you can have an extreme version of a religion. islam is one of the world's greatest religions. on any one takes them to an extreme, that is when you wind up with terrorism and extremism. that is what we've talked about in the book. the u.s. government is focused on the extremism elements, on the right and left, looking at these individual organizations. guest: -- host: debbie, welcome. caller: i am concerned that my view is not as seriously taken by your speakers as it is by the grass roots. i would like to comment on potential nuclear power in iran. guest: this is one of the main areas, nuclear weapons, where the united states is trying to apply the diplomacy we talked about earlier. trying to isolate iran to a nuclear weapon development programs. guest: one of the greatest challenges is how the united states maintains a poli

upset if anybody would draw conclusions about my fellow christians on the basis of the actions of timothy mcveigh and we have to be careful not to stereotype people or encourage actions such as the minister in action who wanted to burn the koran. we should not be doing that. we have to be aware this anxiety exists in the american mind after 9/11. the fact that there is an indisputable connection between radical islam and terrorism in the world but at the same time we have to preserve american principles of independence, judging people as individuals and protecting their liberty, particularly religious liberty. >> some folks heard the first part and ignored the second. >> if it was just that i think it would be forgivable in my mind and i have to work on my own level of forgiveness but what it was was there are people who are invested in attacking and trying to make a larger point and they were willing to sacrifice me and my journalistic independence to do it. the council on american islamic relations cared, bit like the idea that anybody would engage bill o'reilly to their point and say i won't p