if timothy mcveigh -- i plan on giving de that alex jones cells, to you. as providence would have it, i met an evangelistic today what i preached at the cable car turnaround and i thought i should give it to him. it is very powerful, and i think about the awful fact that five officers have come forward and testify. the fbi threatened their lives that they be killed. and the greatest sin that timothy mcveigh did was not murder, it was not believing in jesus. 30 seconds. really, i wish i had two hours. i think about every one that died in oklahoma city and everybody that died at the world trade center, and according to jesus, he said that if they didn't die reconciled to him, and they lost, they perished. it is a no-brainer that mcveigh is in hell or going to hell. >> next speaker. >> to the staff and the mayor, i was born and raised in san francisco, california. san francisco general hospital is my first home, and it was my second. i have a single african-american with six kids, nine grandkids in 20 years in the military. and i have been a victim of domesti

devastation and on certainty in a small city that has never before been touched by terrorism timothy mcveigh nine it was an individual who absorbed this. ideology and he acted it out he concluded that the time for revolution had come. to the federal building. and he knew that one of the agencies in that building was the bureau of alcohol tobacco and fire which was the government agency that he thought would be the one to come for the guns in ohio citizen soldiers trained for carbon compound while snipers in michigan practice with high powered weapons. this insurrectionist idea which is also what motivates these militia groups formed back in the ninety's and reforming again a report out today he claims fifty new militia training and sprung up in less than two years as one law enforcement source dangerous mix is brewing at all but smith. founders were very clear about this it wasn't for honey that we have the second amendment they fear they feared big government and that is why the people should be armed it doesn't mean that we're agitating for the use of these arms but it always holds governm

to extremists like timothy mcveigh, waco was a call to arms.lding in oklahoma city, exactly two years later, killing 168 people. >> his feeling was, this is a war between the people and the government. the government won at waco, but we won bigger at oklahoma city. >> remarkably, neither clive doyle nor shelia martin blame the fbi. to them the fire, the deaths, their grief, it was all part of a bigger plan by a much bigger power. >> god permitted it to work out the way it did. he didn't stop it. >> we don't want to feel that something horrible is something good, but that's what we're supposed to have that faith, that if something happens, you trip, you fall, you -- you trust god has a reason for it. >> i guess, sheila, is the fact that something horrible did happen and i'm not seeing the good. >> the bible says that all things work together for good. for those that love the lord. >> today, there is a new chapel on the 77 acres and a new spiritual leader. charles pace, the man who challenged david koresh in 1984, says god chose him to take charg