reborn, succeeded in disabling a water system in the town of mushu, texas and a wastewater system in tipton, indiana, among others. so my first question, and i'll throw this out maybe to admiral montgomery or to any of you who have this information, if you had to guess, how many people, how many bodies is china, for example, putting into their cyber warfare campaign across all of the various organizations they have? >> this would be a guess, and i think if you go into a closed hearing, you might get a more refined answer, but i would say china is around 60,000. to give you some comparison, the united states cyber mission force, our offensive side, is about 6400. >> so china has 10 times as many people targeting us with cyber warfare as we have trying to defend ourselves, and i assume that russia also through their assorted organizations, thousands of individuals. >> first i should say we have an intelligence community element number that we don't discuss, but not, it's not 54,000 to close the gap. russia has a different number , and russia has both military and intelligence services that do