i first met tom cahill years ago when he was director of religious publishing for doubleday. since then millions of readers have come to know him as the best-selling author of now six books on the "hinges of history," moments and ideas that have shaped our world, including "how the irish saved civilization," "the gifts of the jews," and this one, just published, "heretics and heroes," which i recommend for this eve of the new year because it's about new beginnings and new ideas, the stirrings of renaissance and reformation. thomas cahill, welcome back. >> it's good to see you, bill. >> is this pope a hero or a heretic? >> well, in the book that i just wrote, most of the heretics are heroes and most of the heroes are heretics. so, and it's a little hard to tell, and of course -- >> it's too soon. >> it depends on your point of view. and there are certainly people who are calling francis a heretic. you know, every clergyman is a politician. we forget that for some odd reason. there's no -- you can't be a clergyperson and not be a political person. or you would certainly never r