we also have tom colburn from oklahoma. he's against obama care. welcome to both of you. we're going to start with you. now you have been one of the voices of sanity. and from my point of view in this whole process saying we should not shut down the government. we are now in this ditch. the car is upside down. the wheels are spinning. how are we going to get out of this now from your point of view? >> i think anytime you have a conflict like this, the first thing you have to have is communication. you have to have the vision on how to get there. you have to create a way for everybody to save face, so they n walk away partly injured but still walk away. and you have to have some common sense. you know, this will play out. i was here in '95 and '96. i had a four year hiatus where i went back to my practice, but it's the same type of thing. it's leadership, van, leadership doesn't ath allow this to happen, whether it's republican leadership, presidential leadership or the democratic senate leadership. we have allowed this to happen through failed leadership, not recognizing,

and senator tom colburn says quote, they're going to dig in harder until the pain becomes so bad they yell uncle. how bad will the pain get before they cry uncle, karen? >> well, i think we have to make them cry uncle faster than the pain hits the real people. as you were discussing the pain is hitting people. and this is something like the sequester where they tried to say that things that were happening weren't really happening with the kind of urgency that they are. we're talking about the republicans keeping our government shut down so that people won't get health care, so that children can't be on head start or can't have the food they need to eat. as the congressman says, they're totally disconnected. but i do think there is a very important opportunity here politically, i'll be very political on this, this shows you the incompetence of republican leadership. this is absolute incompetence, and what happened the last time the republicans controlled the house? you had tom delay and a the culture of corruption. i think there's a broader hit that the republican party should take on

post this goprts this, unlike most house members, tom coburn lived through the prolonged shutdown of 1995 and early 1996 although the conservative colburn empathizes with a more junior lawmakers. he says the shutdown strategy will end badly for republicans. the associated press reports this this morning. there is at least one constant in the government shutdown. congressembers of continue to be paid at a cost of 10,000 $583.85 per hour to taxpayers. 583.0, on day two of the government shutdown, jim, republican carter -- republican caller. your previous caller gave the credit to the last balanced budget to president clinton. a government shutdown proceeded that. forced curtail spending. i wonder if she would give an ounce of credit to bob dole and newt gingrich for the balanced budget? i just think it is difficult to see these people get passes. it is already this political. imagine what government health care will be like in 5-10 years with people getting special vouchers -- vouchers. by the way, you look very nice today. host: thank you. here is what president obama said yesterday. this more than anything else seems to be with republic