i think, you know, the cattle market was, certainly, being dominated by refco and tom kiter kit -- dittmer. i remember the rumors would go across the floor, dittmer's buying cattle, and people would try to coat tail him. there were, remember in the hogs and bellies, joel greenberg was a real big player as well, and i remember joel greenberg actually moved into the treasury bill pit and became a very, very large trader there for a while as el with. >> and so what did you trade? >> i started off -- i came back to chicago, i worked as a clerk for a few months, then leased a seat. and i started trade anything gold futures. gold futures were actually the second large itself -- largest volume product at the mercantile exchange. part of it was during those days people were utilizing what they called gold spreads, buy withing one contract, selling another as a vehicle to defer charges. >> and by deferring, you mean not pay. >> yes. [laughter] you're able to use gold contracts to essentially take a tax liable from one year and move it into the next year. and some people did that year after year aft