and travis kalanick at uber. sir michael: brian exemplifies the wonderful traits of a leader.e is obsessed with his company. for him, there is always another hill, mountain to climb. he pushes his team very hard to do the impossible. he has a very long-term view of his business. and he has got a lot of energy. he's got a lot of optimism about the prospect. he is a fantastic leader. emily: what about travis kalanick? sir michael: travis is somebody i do not pretend to know well. emily: he is so controversial. sir michael: controversial -- have you met anyone who is not controversial that has done interesting things? emily: having known three decades of leaders in silicon valley, do you think you have to be arrogant to be successful? sir michael: four decades. emily: four decades. excuse me. sir michael: lots of leaders have to make decisions about going in the direction that may be is not popular in the organization. and sometimes it spills over into arrogance. i'm different from how i was in my 20's. bill gates, who is in his 50's, is very different from what he was in his 20'