investigative journalism i have seen up to that point my life was truman capote is great in cold blood and at some point even sick puppies in prison feel the need to tell somebody about it now this man you're talking about it's an artist and it's more of a economic crime but even violent people get in behind and stir and they. the human need to brag on something even if it's the most perverse gesture is mind boggling to me it absolutely is it is yeah i got one would think well if i don't think it's totally only bragging i think a lot of times they just really want to tell their stories you know they're these are the people that are sort of shunned and stereotyped in our society in a lot of times they just they feel a need to explain why they became who they are and you know they didn't grow up to be quick they didn't grow up criminals they don't want foreign criminals and a lot of times they want to explain sort of their lack of opportunities that lead them to into these trafficking worlds so that's what's always super fascinating to listen to as well. we're talking to marianna van zel