has union work rules that ran into thousand of pages t made the workers unflexible, unresponsive and unproductive. you cannot compensate people for performance under a union contract, so people don't have any incentive to perform better and to make more money for the company. that's the biggest problem. unions take away the incentive. >> pat, you have heard both sides of the argument. what do you say? >> well, i think it's difficult to try to say unions are bad, unions are good, because let's look at u.p.s. and fedex. one is unionized and one is not. they both do just fine. they both have done fine. the biggest issue is a shift in the job base of our country from manufacturing jobs to service sector. that's not going to change, no matter whether it is ron bloom or mother teresa in the white house. it is an ongoing shift and we're still maintaining a lot of high value manufacturing jobs in this country, where the high skilled jobs stay here. low value added assembly jobs go overseas an frankly, they should. >> the high value jobs are not nawnized, are not unionized, and you brought tw