they are forced to join the union, forced to pay mon tote union and the unions spend the monoa politicalrty they don't agree with -- that's not freedom. that's not liberty. that's not pro-choice. why wouldn't you support the right of people to choose? >> that's an out-of-context descringz of the problem. the problem is without unions, there is no counterforce to big business-- >>> it's legalized theft -- >> give me a chance. there is no counter force to big business to people who say, let's cut the salaries and outsource your job, everybody's only about profit and it is not about making sure that employers-- >>> you want the government -- [overlapping dialogue] >> it's called forced association. our founders would be in shock understanding that to get a particular job, you had to join an association that you may fundamentally disagree with, as the cost of employment. it is forced association. it is not protected by the first amendment. it is forced association. the right-to-work laws don't eliminate the unions-- >>> that's right -- let me bring up one point. a lot of good unions in detro

in a good union maybe 60%, 70% of the workers will voluntarily give dues to the union. that's in a union shop where they're very active. that's in most right-to-work states. so i think what you're going to see in michigan as you look at the uaw it has 150,000 members in michigan. i think they're going to lose about 50,000 members. i mean my best-case scenario, what that translates to is a loss of $30 to $40 million a year in dus revenue. it hurts the ability of the uaw to do things and is losing $30 to $40 million they'll be spending tens of millions to refill this later. >> eliot: one of the things that mystified me about the bill signed into law today why are cops and firefighters excluded. why is this good for workers? did he carve out the two unions that are friendlier to the republican party than any other? >> yeah, i mean cops and firefighters unions tend to be friendlier to the republican party. the police union i endorsed bush several times. cops and firefighters tend to be friendlier to republicans although many of them are solid democrats as well. so i think t

the unions helped turn out the democratic vote and the democratic party in the unions are very heavily connected as it were that this is not so much as an assault on the union as it is on the on the structural and financial base of the democratic party in that state well exactly they have done the numbers they know the history that what this does is it interferes with the ability of workers to politically organize their a bit their ability to politically organize becomes more state becomes more stretched democratic representation decreases in states that have the right to work kinds of laws die. it goes with b. in the red state the the ten states that i've talked about every one of them read every one of decreased democratic influence it also does something that you mention tom that i think is very important it closes down the civil courts they become stacked against the worker against workers' rights they've become stacked against the democratic party in many respects they differ they definitely become stacked against the right to become for unions to politically organize so all of th

i'm worried that unions go too far. or interpret an elect, they did help bring president obama over the finish line, that qualifies them now to just, pull out all of the stops. >> they are doing why -- giveying people an example of why they don't want to be in a union, they are using union dues to pay for the political causes that not everyone agrees with, this is not about the governors of the states attacking the union, this is about the union attacking itself, not giving the people a choice to be in it or not. neil: a lot were annoyed. many say i like president obama, but you know cool it. >> i really disagree. if you look at what happened in 2012 elect, we had a very clear choice between an economy that was tilted to the rich, and let the benefits trickle down. if you would or under president obama leadership to build from middle class out. and president obama won -- >> i'm giving your forces credit for delivering the vote, they got out the vote, and turned out to are far more passionate about it than republicans, t

i still belong to one and i like the union." but this discredits the entire union movement. it is criminal activity, it is stupid, it is destructive to the reputation of the union, destructive to workers. ronald reagan was a union leader, a proud one. the screen actors' guild. i don't think he would con cone this and neither should the democratic party today. >> no one is condoning the violence but no one is saying these nonrepresentative extreme people represent the entire labor people. i think these are be a bore rags. >> what did we see in wisconsin. >> and we should condemn it on the left and the right. we are consistent on that. >> lanny, they inveighed the legislator of wisconsin shouting and hollering when from the balconies. if conservatives did that in the u.s. capitol, they would go to jail. >> i think they would both be wrong and i agree with you it hurts the labor union. as a pro labor democrat that's correct kind ever activity doesn't persuade undecided people. it turns off those people. so are they are hurting the labor movement by that kind of action. >> thank

i'm not being anti-union here. i'm pro-union.ies in connecticut, in rhode island, in massachusetts, across new england reopened. but the jobs from overseas, they're not going there. they're not going there because of work force rules that i think even trump told me were outdated and outmoded. >> is our education system outdated? >> no. >> our union advocacy, is that outdated, how they go about fighting for it? i don't know. that question was put on the table. whether factories are shut, that means jobs have left. if you look at wages enjoyed by workers in right-to-work states, i think it should be put on the table. where do they fare? i have not done the analysis so it's hard to say. >> it's a question, though, willie, whether you want the job or not. >> right. >> i asked bob riley, i've said this 1,000 times, it seems extraordinarily important if you're a union member in the northeast, and like me, you want your factories running again. i asked bob riley, i don't understand, why did mercedes go to tuscaloosa county, alabama, ins

who's in a union shop should pay union dues. you might ask why is that a big deal. well if not everyone's required to pay you're going to have people who enjoy the advantages of a union better pay and better benefits environment but who don't contribute to the union's survival at all. this only works if we're all in it together. and more than that, this law is going to starve unions of their funding. from a political perspective in this democracy that is their power. there are actually two separate pieces of legislation. first applies to private sector employees like autoworkers. second one is public sector employees like teachers. though, of course, it exempts firefighters and police officers which is a classic move that republicans use off ton pit unions against each other. this is the same trick that they probably learned i'm sure everybody knows from their colleagues in wisconsin. but even as protests continue, these bills are heading to governor rick schneider's desk. what's he going to do? back in february, he criticized t

i'm a union man and i know charlie is very fondf unions.e love unions, but we want people to have the right to choose whether or not they belong to a unn. a clothes shop wherehey have to have the union and i don't think that's freedom, if you want to join the union by all means, but to make it mandatory, that seems a bit harsh. >> neil: but the unions are spinning it the other way in michigan, charles, what do you ke of that? >> and ben makes the great point. the unions feel like their back has been against the walls and have for a number of years. in michigan, this is the way we can be competitive. liste everyone talks about the great comeback in detroit in the auto sector, that's a mirage. michigan's in trouble, detroit is in trouble and this is how they compete on the national scale, ultimately, a global scale. >> neil: dagen? >> versignificant that this is happening and by the way, this is just the right to not have toay union dues i you don't want to belong to a union first and foremost. >> neil: and you got that. >> very significant t

don't count union don't count the union at here if anything. this is a state tom where michigan was invented and built on the efforts of unions this is the worst place the republicans could pick to make their fight not the best place they might have won today because mainstream media tried to create this hero out of this governor who is a total fraud who is nothing but a corporate toad for the car for the koch brothers for dick devotes for all of the regular suspects but now the fight is on and i can promise you they're not going to simply just take this you see fifty thousand people out there today that number i predict will grow to half a million before this is over with that would be extraordinary what are your thoughts on the one of the primary motivations for this being that mitt romney lost michigan by nine points he's like me i was born and raised in michigan so i believe he was as well he should have carried his home state you'd think. the unions helped turn out the democratic vote and the democratic party in the unions are very heavily

i mean, unions have clearly lost some power here. >> unions have lost power because unions have been under attack by right wing assaults. >> unions are not the victims. >> would you be quiet for a second. >> not when you're going to deceive people. >> a lot of employers have also employed -- have illegally fired workers who tried to form unions. >> that is so rare. so rare in this economy. >> could you be quiet for a second, justin. it's very difficult because of our labor laws which a antiquated also. it's very difficult to form a union in this country. >> all right. >> and our labor laws don't impose very heavy penalties on an employer that breaks the law by firing a worker who tries to organize or discriminates against a worker who tries to organize a union. if you ask unions how many want representation at the workplace, millions and millions of workers who say -- >> it's actually 13%. it's 13% of workers want to join a worker. we did a poll, 13% of workers want a union. >> this is a topic we'll continue. hope you'll come back soon to continue hashing this out. >> thanks for havi

when people join the european union where they will joining a federal union if you because you know what a lot of people will say is that they lost more and more of their freedoms to make decisions about their economies civil society sick cetera. well i totally disagree to that i mean of course the european union has to be based on subsidy or it's a principle which means that the decisions are made close as possible to the citizens on the other hand you know is that the case is that the case song truth is that the case let me finish all right go ahead yeah yeah of course about dontcha think that . in a case that a federal union existed with a federal strong budget that the sovereignty of the european citizens overall would be better than we have now in that crisis we are all victims at the moment because we do not have a fully fledged prescription my clearly question is did people join you create something like the united states yeah i mean they are going to they join it to create a united states of europe that it has to be discussed i'm just saying yes there is no alternative to th

and the other unions to blame for this this is the home of big union and if they can lose there that's the evidence of the people who know them best know that worst well it might be the home of big union but it's also right now controlled by a republican state legislature a republican governor which is and they're forcing this law throughout the house to americans for prosperity in kokoda groups and there are huge protests confronting the passage of this law as you mentioned the stats five thousand dollars less every year twenty one percent fewer people on health on health today health benefits and more workplace in other words higher corporate profits here but speakers the workers more money gets cut by c.e.o.'s and if you look at the right to work states they're all southern states they're all the same states that are collecting a lot more money from the government and they're paying into the government because people have to go on benefits right there people have to go on government benefits because their employer isn't paying them enough to get by so mark well first of all this ide

and that of course has raised the ire of union supporters and union members. get back to mike tobin in just a moment who's live in the middle of all of that. martha: we also want to get to this morning. there is new controversy surrounding catherine bigelow movie about the hunt and killing of osama bin laden. you first remember conservatives were claiming that classified information may have been used to make this movie, "zero dark thiry". but this time now that the movie is about to be released some liberals are speaking out and taking aim at what they're calling the glorification of torture in this movie. here is a clip from "zero dark thiry". >> can i be honest with you? i am bad news. i'm not your friend. i'm not going to help you. i'm going to break you. any questions? martha: i think a lot of people are looking forward to seeing this and seeing how it depicts the raid that killed usama bin laden. a huge moment in the history of our country of course. i'm joined by pete hegseth, u.s. army veteran and ceo of concerned veterans for america. >> thank you for

union president will talk to me anymore but two other boss is did the fed added that teachers union from washington d.c. the city schools are terrible because of unions like yours. >> i disagree. we have progress as a result >> three days before the pro -- the protest march the protesters composed of the anti-tests and song. >> i think i know why the union does not like it. >> the results are awful among the lowest in the nation. >> you make the argument lowest in the nation based on the test scores. i would say hours could get a better buy it. john: your predecessors the union has been saying that for years. >> they have a pretty strong history for advocating for higher education. >> and not achieving it. >> that is not what we choose to focus on. >> we chooseo focus on teaching kids. >> catalino if they are learning? >> i know my kids are learning when i look in their eyes. >> the protesters had celebrity support matt damon was asked by a woman about the rules that make it hard to fire. >> there is a job security? what about for teachers? been making the job insecurity makes me work ha

there is the private union and the public union. >> right. >> greta: and the public-sector union is so vastly different in one respect, you know, lawyers always have to worry about the conflict of interest. but there is something bizarre about a public-sector union, putting somebody in office and then negotiating with that somebody for the person's wages or benefits. >> right. >> greta: public service. there is a horrible conflict of interest that i don't know how it correct t. i just know that it exists because, you know, you are negotiating with the person who put in office. >> exactly. right! they go raise money for this guy, they nominate him and then they elect him. he wins by a few poign points and they want to negotiate the contract, joe, you and i are buddies. let's talk it over. so have you an inherent conflict of interest. the public prb with the public unions, look, we are borrowing 40 cents out of every dollar we spend. mon of the public unions when i wrote by book, the federal government, the pay and benefits combined of the average federal worker were about twice what the

enforced union states down 3.4%.hat is a significant statement when it comes to right-to-work states in this country. >> it sure is. the real bottom line to it is people are voting with their feet. since 1990s -- since 1990 every time we've reapportioned the united states house of representatives, the right-to-work states have gained eight to nine representatives while the forced unionism states have lost eight to nine. the difference since 1990 has been 25 seats going from the forced unionism states to the right-to-work states. people are voting with their feet. people don't want to be forced into unionism, they don't want to have a pay a union to keep their jobs. lou: and the fact of the matter is that a heritage study shows a quarter of union members would stop paying dues if they could. they're being begin thaa opportunity under legislation. as we reported, 22 states considering it this year, four of them actually got it done including now most recently, of course, the state of michigan. how powerful is this move

are you serious this is not anti-union? >> i don't view it as pro or anti-union. unions just need to be responsive to people to step up and deliver value. and workers have that choice. and workers should have that choice. they shouldn't be compelled to join something they don't see value in. >> virg bernero, isn't it interesting how government in michigan is so concerned about the relationship between union and its workers? >> yeah, it's interesting this freedom, freedom and this choice. you know, if the governor and others who are for this believe really in this kind of freedom and choice in a democracy, then why don't they make taxes voluntary? because the reality is that that's what union dues are. the majority has voted for a union, and the majority rules in a democracy. just like the majority voted for rick snyder. i might not agree with his policies as governor, but i don't have a choice to hold back on my taxes. i might not agree with the direction the president is taking, but i got to pay my federal taxes or the irs will come after me. so the idea that you

and what this law changes is forced union membership, i repeat, forced union membership.he president, and why are the unions so upset? in this case, it is about the money. specifically union dues, less money, mea less political power, this is the offset to the right to work, the right to power, and the unions think that is their right. other states like idaho and oklahoma pass right-to-work laws their union dues paying membership, those unions, dues pay membership fell by 15%. down 15%. if that happens in michigan, the heritage foundation has come up with estimate to how much the unions in michigan would lose. that number is over $46 million a year in dues. michigan, just one state. nationwide, we're not talking about public employee unions yet. let's do so, nationwide government employee unions collect, are you ready for this number? that is taxpayer money, going in the form of wes to the government class, if you will, public employees receiving and paying $14 billion in dues alone. that is what is at stake here. this is not just about money, it is not just about politic

the union actually has to by law defend that employee even if that employee is not paying union dues the union is compelled to do the union can't go shape for wages that are separate and promotions another thing i felt as though there is a free riders are getting all those benefits of unionization i mean whether they are not free riders or is this is something that happens in any society with any any system it happens and capital conservatives always protest against you know that's their that's your argument is it well ministers that take away someone's will and does this work for less than that studies show back and forth whether or not people make more make less thousand eight hundred dollars a year on average in rich work for less states people make less than they do and there are definitely studies that say otherwise and also the amount of money that's going to come in the state was supposed to jobs at a flea in indiana well balanced out people actually have jobs but right to work for less these guys want to right to not have to pay around nine hundred dollars a year and union du

so is this the end for unions? joining me now is the the director of labor policy at mack kin gnaw center, who has been at the protests site all day. we have mark brenner, director of labor notes. vinnie, what do you make of what went on today? >> melissa, thanks for having me on. it is absolutely historic. you're talking about the state with the 52-week highest percentage of union members in the country. the birthplace of the uaw. for what has been long considered a union strong hold, giving workers the freedom to choose. freedom to choose whether or not to pay a union and still keep their jobs. this will have national ramification. this is very historic day both for michigan at country. melissa: mark, is there aniable positive way to spin this for the union side? >> of course not. this is union-busting move by lame duck legislature. this is puppet marching to the beat of puppet tease, dick devs of amway who want to hurt unions. melissa: did they succeed? is there a way to battle back. >> of course we have ability

>> unions can't stop the big mac.donald's, an extraordinary company. >> brenda: jonas bull or bear. >> bear. >> brenda: gary b, your prediction? >> holiday season has arted. for some son and i think the stock is back to $300 by valentine's day. >> brenda: and rry, bull or bear? >> bear, not enough for my taste. >> brenda: larry, your prediction? >> financial d-day sends

unions. since the elections of 2010 we have seen this in indiana and wisconsin. republicans tried to do that in ohio too. and voters repealed the anti-union law by 22 points. today republicans succeeded in taking away union rights. they succeeded in weakening unions in the cradle of american labor, in michigan, in walter reuther's home. it didn't even take them all that long. >> mr. speaker, i have a question of final passage of senate bill 116. there are 58 aye votes and 52 nay. >> having voted for, the bill is passed. >> the michigan legislature today finished what they started out of the blue last week. they passed a pair of bills to take union rights away from public employees, and this is important, from workers in the private sector. you can see the reaction from supporters of union rights today at the capitol. more than 10,000 people gathered on the lawn outside. they say the protests today in michigan the largest the state has ever seen. the bills weaken unions in michigan by making i

>>neil: if you are a non-union member you benefit from the union contracts.st: yes, the union gets you better wages and you don't have to participate in supporting the union, and the enresult of that is the union loses power and it loses their ability to bargain for better wages for workers. >>neil: what happens now? i have been trying to get a sense if a deal will be made toward the end of the year and benefitten your rules here, they have to have the structure and outline of a deal by friday in order to get things marked up, and out committee and to conference and votes and all of this stuff i don't understand and the deadline is not the end of the year but this week. >>guest: it can be byzantine process but it can take time to get it converted. your timeframe is right to get it done before christmas but there is a very big chance we are talking about closer to the end of the year if we get an agreement. i think there is better than 50/50 chance we will. there are a lot of hurdles to cross. >>neil: nancy pelosi was criticizing speaker boehner, and speaker b

behavior of unions in wisconsin, and it should be -- well, if you're a union member, you ought to beshamed of the behavior of your union brothers. there's a democratic process, the people of michigan have elected representatives and an elected governor. they've made a choice to change the law and take away this crazy monopoly that lets unions force people to be members. i once had to be a member of a union. i hated it because they made me do things i didn't want to do. it's an inherently corrupt kind of organization to say you have to belong to a union to have a job. and the fact that the president gets into the middle of this and emboldens these people and they're tearing down tents and threatening people, it's ridiculous. and the president ought to stand up and take responsibility for it. alisyn: leslie, what do you think about him weighing in on this controversy? >> i think it's necessary. i mean, you have the president of the united states who said let's bail out the auto industry, whose hub is the of michigan, and they have been successful. for him to be talking about the econom

one looked at the union government, the structure of the states and the federal government in the union in the state's and the federal the limit in the confederacy and says the confederacy was the state. they succeeded on state rights and then they had to build and proceeded to because they had to build this enormous state apparatus. they conscripted within a year. think about that as a statement of state power. they conscripted within a year and they passed the taxes within basically a year, and they had agents of the federal government all over the south literally taking food out of people's barnes. it was the only way that they could feed the army. so, fay and pressed which was an enormous fight, that is the fascinating part of the story is these huge slaveholders go to war to protect and then they find out the new government is there to protect them in the war but it turns out the federal government wants to and needs to use them to win the war. it is this the enormous cost of between the slave holders and the government and they also read equals and the government that says congres

dues and give it to the union.n organization that you choose not to belong to. there is something called the first amendment, freedom of speech and association and that means not to associate . for generations, the states have trampled this right now . the right is resurgent again and as we can see from wisconsin, last year and from michigan today, the right -- >> gretchen: i believe indiana last year and now you have 24 states that decided to do i find it interesting though in the election, michigan people voted for president obama in that state, but they are fractured in that sense. they voted for something he is violently against . he was in the stump in michigan saying you should never let this happen and it is bad for the voters. >> sometimes the voters are more sophisticated than we give credit for. clearly the democratic party nationally and in michigan favor collective bargaining but voters in michigan decided to have individual rights. >> gretchen: but will the party like that because of the unions give so

union square san francisco, santana row -- >> you and i will be at union square make will be at walnutek. >> meet the news team as we broadcast life throughout the day at those locations. >> if you can't make it, you can call the number on the screen: or text feed to 80077 donate $10. and you can help those who most need think time of year. >> -- most need it this time of year. >>> fascinating new research out of stanford university about why babies tend to stare at people's faces for long periods of time they are too young to recognize basic shapes but scientists tell us they are processing faces likeu. researchers hooked up electronic sensors to baby's skulls to measure brain activity, spike in visual processing when pictures of faces flashed in front of them the levels dipped when other objects were shown >> we should wave toys when all they want to do is stare at our faces all day. >>> still to come, season of sharing in full swing. >> next, how san francisco firefighters are fulfilling holiday wishes this morning. [ male announcer ] if you're ready to get more from your tv service

the union, right?ernard thinks, you can join the union, or in a right-to-work state, you cannot. >> absolutely. this gives the workers the freedom to choose what they want and if they want to join a union. to go back to what he said, that this would be something that the voters will have retribution against the governor, they had an opportunity this past november to actually vote against right to work with protect our jobs which was a ballot measure that would have had an amendment to block right to work as an amendment to the state constitution. they rejected that, 57-42. in a state where they know unions, where unions were born, they rejected the ability to block this right-to-work amendment. so this shows that the public wants to have the opportunity to attract more businesses to the state and to have a more friendly environment. megyn: what do you think, bernard, john fund -- previously of "the wall street journal," now he writes for the national review -- was on our air earlier today, and he point

they were forming unions in a none union environment.ecade ago almost no worker had a union. so people say there's no leverage there. we created a bottom-up structure said said we'll talk to other workers and have the workers talk to their religious leader in the region about why having union matters. and then we'll have them all talk to their pta and little league and soccer coach and soccer mom and we began a broad based grassroots strategy to reeducate people about how we created good jobs in the country and the base came from the churches, sip goings, mosques, the parent-teacher association, little league and soccer fields we collectively formed an organization to begin to fight. that's leverage at the polls and leverage against the employers. it was a grassroots effort by a whole community rising up and saying, we have to create it by forming union and defending workers and forming union and we shifted an entire market in southern connecticut from nonunion to union in several years by taking that approach because we said childcare m

one, a vote on public unions. the second vote on private unions. both of those bills are expected to pass the house. if they do, the measure will go to governor rick schneider's desk. he is expected to sign it as early as today, if all of this transpires as expected. ashleigh? >> and we've got live pictures before you, alison, of the house vote that's going on right now as we speak. so what's the reaction? it looks as if this is going to be a fate kplooe in many people's eyes. what are the unions going to do about it, if anything? >> reporter: i basically asked them, this is pretty much a lost cause, isn't it? and they said, no, it's not, because we want our voices heard, and even though we're not going to keep this law from going into effect, they say they will have the power come election time in two years to change the landscape. so they want their voices heard today that come election time, they say they will be heard. ashleigh? >> alison kosik for us live outside the state capitol in lansing, michigan. and of course, that state, michigan, syno

you have a great union there. is this right to work thing really going to hurt your union and kill the esprit de corps of the union workers? why would this hurt them? >> i don't think it will in the uaw. we have great membership loyalty. the problem is it's just the first step. we have watched in this state right wing legislatures pass laws to take away the collective bargaining rights from public sector employees on health care and pensions. they did a petty vindictive law that took away the right to dues deductions for teachers. that's why we're fighting here today, we want to stop this before they try it take away the rights of private sector workers to bargain over wages or pensions or health care. this is about democracy and about america. also want to say for economic hey sis, it's so great to see you. you, too! oh, cloudy glasses. you didn't have to come over! actually, honey, i think i did... oh? you did? whoa, ladies, easy. hi. cascade kitchen counselor. we can help avoid this with cascade complete pacs.

between the european union and russia .