the united states government boros 40 cents for every dollar it spends and that's not a good position to be in if you suddenly are not able to borrow anymore. and that's just a direct effect, never mind what it would do to the markets. the government would not be able to pay some bills. the republicans say that's ok, we'll pick and choose. but there's a second consequence that i think is just as important. if they raise the debt ceiling -- we've gone through all this pain and we're no closer to fiscal stability than before. that will also have consequences and those won't go away on august 4. gwen: i don't hear the panic. >> one of the developments that is different is there are 75 to 115 members of the house who actually believe that we don't have to do this. maybe the number is a little lower than that. who think that maybe it would be good if the government went through the process of not paying for certain things anymore because they believe a lot of different things about it. >> they believe that's the way to get the government to change. >> and i might add that 233 house members