you said it's unknowable. which is it? >> what i said was that detainees who were subbed to eits at some point during their confinement subsequently provided information that our experts found to be useful and valuable in our cower terrorism efforts. and the causen an effect relationship between the application of those eits and the ultimate provision of information is unknown and unknowable. but for someone to say that there was no intelligence of value of use that came from those detainees once they were subjected to eits i think that is lacks any foundation at all. >> let me follow up on that. what seems to be a an inherent be conflict. the agency's position and its defenders has been that in particular one of its signal successes, the take-down of osama bin laden, could be attributed to the use of what the president and others have caused torture, what you prefer to call enhanced interrogation techniques. do you think the bin laden case can be attributed in some part to enhanced interrogation techniques orator tour and

up and his so fired people, one of the results unknowable? -- why are the results unknowable? we have done these two people, one of them died, some of the techniques are really, you want to turn your head. atn you waterboard somebody 183 times, is that a way to get -- waterboardtion somebody 183 times, is that a way to get useful information? there are allegations that we found out another evidence that we found out that information about osama bin laden before the employed these eits. some of that may have to be resolved. the way, it was known around the world, it was not a secret and this is not revealing a secret that we used these eits. and by the way, i did not see eal, and ased z possible increase in zero all the part of al qaeda and ice is to attack the united states whether this information was out zeal on the part of al qaeda and isis to attack the united states whether this information was out there or not. i think they were carrying out orders and there was not a prohibition at that time, certainly a specific prohibition in american law, although the geneva conventi

he didn't make the connection, saying it's unknowable. he left open in his mine that the enhanced techniques led to accessible intelligence. >> then there are the politics. colorado senator mark udall insisted he wants john brennan to resign. at the white house on wednesday, press secretary had this to say... >> john brennan is a dedicated professional, dedicating his time in public service to protecting the united states of america. that makes him a patriot, and it makes him someone who has the full confidence of the president of the united states. >> you know, again, this all seems skitsio friendic. you -- schizophrenic. the have the c.i.a. director disagree with the white house. he's disagree with them. he disagrees with the report. you have the head of the intelligence committee, a power. democrat, you know, tweeting against him. then the white house says "hey, even though he disagrees with us and our person in the senate, we support him." >> well, there's currently a strong bond between president obama and john brennan. in the speech

he emphasized the word, unknowable.rom what we've been told for the last five years and as recently as this week, people going on tv, writing editorials saying it absolutely led to new evidence. >> because on that point tuesday the cia point out a statement saying interrogations of detainees on whom enhanced interrogation techniques were used did produce intelligence that helped capture terrorists and save lives. that's what they said on tuesday. >> today he said it's unknowable. and i think he's much more accurate today. if you go into the senate report -- look, i wasn't on the commity when this report was put together. i sat and read the report, i took a whole week and went in every night with a subway sandwich and coke and read the thing cover to cover, the 500 pages. and i got progressively sick, disgusted, and angry. it is very powerful, and a very strong case -- >> here's what undermines the report, though. brennan said, no cia personnel were interviewed by the commity during the course of the investigation. this

between the use of eits and useful information subsequently provided by the detainee is in my view unknowable. irrespective of the role eits might play in a detainee's provision of useful information, i believe effective noncoercive methods are available to elicit such information. methods that do not have a counterproductive impact on our national security and on our international standing. it is for these reasons that i fully support the president's decision to prohibit the use of eit's another key

>> they were saying yesterday that it is unknowable. david petraeus was also cia director thought that the best way to do it was what he said about if you want information, become his best friend. >> george tenet, who was cia director, said that we can tell you specifically how we got information that led to the attempt to either rescue -- to capture or kill osama bin laden. >> i keep hearing that but there is argument on the other side of the information that they got, the useful information that they got was before they inflicted the eits. so there is a debate out there as to whether that technique was indeed successful or not. if that was indeed the case, why did mr. brennan yesterday say that the results were unknowable? you either know or you don't know. >> i hear you. there is also, as you pointed out, this major point in terms of the reaction around the world. how does this country, assuming it does have the impact, go about repairing the damage? is it important to acknowledge mistakes? >> i think acknowledging our mistakes is th

now he's saying it is unknowable. that's a weird place to be. >> and the fact is it is not unknowable. you can look at the real world cases. which is what the report reports to do. we have a major exclusive story about jeb bush's exclusive business dealings. you can read it now on bloombergpolitics.com. it includes some thing called bhb global aviation that allows overseas investors to avoid paying american taxes. jeb bush is also the chairman of two other multimillion dollar funds. here's the key line from the story -- "jeb bush's flurry avengers does not suggest anyone preparing to run for president." the story also suggests jeb bush might have a mitt romney problem because of all the overseas ties he has through these investment vehicles. a lot of supporters are saying he does not have a mitt romney problem but a lot of those people thought mitt romney did not have a mitt romney problem. does this story, a major exclusive, show the dimensions of jeb bush's experience and what does it say about his chances in 2016?

of course it is a noble. -- it is unknowable. the people on the ground believe it was necessary. >> john brennan thinks it is unknowable. >> i think it is politically convenient to say it is unknowable. towe talk about -- you have understand the context. the word they use his context. give us a sense of the context. saying, if we had not done these things, and there had been a successful attack six months later, there would be held to pay. people would have said, why did you not know this? what is the context? >> context is important. >> who is pushing and demanding. you how thisl played out. the context is important. i was therefore part of this. i was president bush's daily briefer. george tenet and i would go to the oval office every morning. of theersonally aware context and the feeling any room. -- in the room. >> you knew with the president knew. >> the context was, 3000 people had just been killed. there was credible intelligence of a second, that there would be a second wave of attacks against the u.s. credible intelligen

he says the answer is unknowable. but when you look at the records, you can see that plenty of information was gained prior to the use of the eits themselves from those detainees. >> let's listen to what he said about these interrogation techniques and whether or not they are torture. >> first of all, i certainly agree that there were times when cia officers exceeded the policy guidance that was given and the authoritized techniques that were approved and determined to be lawful. they went outside the bounds in terms of their actions as part of that interrogation process. they are harsh. in some instances i would say they're abhorrent. and i'll leave it to you to label those active it itieactiv. >> john mccain said we engaged in torture. and once we've admitted we engaged in torture, we have a duty to live up to our obligation. this is a starting point, not an ending point. >> one thing i find interesting about the defenders of the program is not one of them is saying with eneed that program now. let's reinstate it im

so of course, it's unknowable.ut the people on the ground believe it was necessary. >> rose: john brennan thinks it's unknowable because of the reasons you just said. >> i think it's politically convenient to say it's unknowable. >> rose: we talk much now especially people from the c.i.a. you have to understand the context. the word they used is context the word you've used is context. give us a sense of the context. because my cadence is going around saying if in fact we hadn't done these things and there had been a successful attack later, six months later, it will be hell to pay. >> right. >> rose: and people said why didn't you know this. >> right. so this gets -- >> rose: what's the context. >> the context is very important. >> rose: who is pushing and who is demanding. >> let me tell you exactly how this played out, okay. the context is very important and i was there for part of this context. so in 2001, i was president bush's daily intelligence briefer. george tenant and i would go to the oval office every m

it's an unknowable fact. so i think what the agency's point has been consistently and what certainly my view is after having reviewed the documents is that there was useful intelligence, very useful valuable intelligence that was obtained from individuals who had been at some point subjected to eits. whether that could have been obtained without the use of those eits is something again that is unknowable. i think as others have said recently with the president missed the point that what i think going forward we want to do is to make sure that we're able to do what is necessary to protect this country and we have a very robust counter-terrorism program underway right now. we're working with our partners abroad to make sure we're able to obtain this information from individuals who are captured and that we are able to gain some access to. thank you. >> thanks, ken delaney from the associated press. director brennan, do you agree with president obama's statement that the cia in common parlance tortured detainees

. >> if it's indisputable, john brennan said it's unknowable. even swron brennan who i think supports the program could not come to the conclusion that it's indisputable. >> well, what brennan said was unknowable, he says look, we got information. what's unknowable is if we could have gotten the same information had we not used these techniques. >> right. >> that's an experiment. how long do you want to try that experiment? ksm wasn't talking. they used the techniques, suddenly he was talking. maybe he had a change of heart or maybe the techniques worked. how long are you going to wait to see if he actually is going to talk? >> director brennan's view of this report, andrea. he obviously doesn't like how it was done. thinks, as he said, over the top when it comes to transparency. does he disagree with the facts? >> yes. at this lengthy, you know, hour that we spent with him, and he disputes thej@kfact that information on bin laden was obtained by other sources, by other foreign intelligence agencies, before any of the torture which he would not

morrell was so fired up -- and i understand it -- and his people, why are the results unknowable, unknowable when we've done this to people that actually, apparently one of them died. some of the techniques are really, you know, almost you want to turn your head. and when you waterboard somebody 183 times, is that a way to really get useful information? and there's a lot of back and forth as to whether, you know, there are allegations whether we found out about osama bin laden and there is other evidence that says we found out that information before they employed these e.i.t.s, and some of that may have to be resolved. but what's the results of our image around the world, by the way, which was known around the world. this wasn't a secret. this wasn't revealing a secret we used these e.i.t.s. and, by the way, i didn't see any increased zeal, don't see any possible increase in zeal on the part of al quaida and i.s.i.s. to attack the united states whether this information was out there or not. >> charlie: what do you think about reports wiwï the u.n. that some people think there should be pros

s and the ultimate provision of information is unknown and unknowable. but for someone to say that there was no intelligence of value, of use that came from those detainees once they were subjected to e.s, i think that lacks any foundation at all. >> ifill: in the specific case of osama bin laden, the senate findings,reinforced in a running series of tweets today by committee chairman dianne feinstein, said information gleaned from tortured detainees did not help find him. brennan, again, disagreed. >> it is our considered view that the detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques provided information that was useful and was used in the ultimate operation to go against bin laden. >> ifill: on another key point, the c.i.a. director said agency officials did not lie to the white house, congress, the public and the media. >> the record simply does not support the study's inference that the agency repeatedly, systematically, and intentionally misled others on the effectiveness of the program. >> ifill: brennan's statements and a 136-page

when it comes to the use of enhanced interrogation, he said it was simply unknowable if those practicesduced results. the bbc's north american editor has more. >> few reports in recent years have produced such angry blast and counter blast. the fundamental charge laid against the cia is a tortured detainees with nothing to show for it. highly unusual news conference, it was the turn of the director of the spy agency to respond and crucially, did he accept the word torture -- that therenly agree were times when cia officers exceeded the policy guidance that was given and the authorized techniques that were approved and determined to be lawful. they were harsh. considernstances, i them abhorrent and i will leave to others how they might want to label those activities. there wereafter 9/11 no easy options. on enhanced interrogation techniques, he gives a very nuanced statement. produced useful intelligence that helped the united states towards -- thwart attack plans, captured terrorists and save lives. but let me be clear. we have not concluded that it was the use of eip's in that program

it's an unknowable fact.y my view is after having reviewed the documents, is that there was useful intelligence, very useful, valuable intelligence that was obtained from individuals who had been at some point subjected to the eits. whether that could have been obtained without the use of those eits is something, again, that is unknowable. >> john brennan there talking about eits. that stands for enhanced interrogation techniques. some critics have condemned it's an attempt to talk about torture by another name. it has been confirmed by the british prime minister's office that the british security services had spoken to their american counterparts and asked for redactions to the senate committee report on security grounds. malcolm riffken heads the agency. >> i had a conversation with the head of the intelligence agency and he stated quite categorically what we have now heard publicly that there were no requests to redact or to conceal anything in the report that referred to any allegations of united kingdom

it's unknowable. that's the official cia position right now. it's unknowable whether it worked. it migrated from absolutely certainty to, well, it's unknowable, speaks volumes. >> today an official from the united nations called on the u.s. government to prosecute those responsible for the deeds laid out in this report. what do you think? >> well, that decision, i think, was made some years ago. it was made by the incoming obama administration that they weren't going to proceed with prosecutions. i think prosecutions at this point is not really the point. the point is, we've got to have a national discussion about torture and whether it's something that we countenance and whether it's effective. i have to tell you, jake, i hope you guys can run a significant part of john mccain's speech this morning. every american schoolchild should hear that speech, every member of this body should hear that speech. it's about who america is and it's about whether or not this activity, this essentially torture, works as a matter of good intelligence gathering. and he made a compelling case tha

and among the tweets, cia says unknowable if we could have gotten the intel other ways.study shows it is knowable. cia had info before torture. read the report, the hash tag. with that let's bring in our panel, george will, juan williams, and charles krauthammer. okay, george. >> this is an unprecedented press conference and i don't think it's a precedent that make us hungry for more because i don't think we learned a whole lot. the contention seems to be in this town that the most important question is did the torture work. the fact is the law doesn't say torture is forbidden or unless or until it's useful, it's just forbidden so the question is, is this torture and did we do it. brennan seems ready to concede a number of the points. i would like to have heard a question as to why and who destroyed the tapes. our fox news' in-house judge says and i think he's right that this whole report stems from the irritation ofne feinstein if they destroyed the tapes. they hacked the computers of the oversight committee of congress for the cia. these are unanswered questions and pa

that is what john brennan was saying was unknowable, that's what the report says is knowable. now here is the problem. after a big national crisis or a scandal, we have a reflex of putting together a bipartisan commission and in the ideal world, that by partisan commission, whoever it is, it could have been the church committee which was the forerunner of the intelligence committee in the 1970's. it could have been the 9/11 commission comes out with a set of findings and recommendations -- gwen: and everybody agrees. >> not everybody agrees. it's not complete, but you have enough big rep hlicans and democrats that everybody says here is a national consensus. what happened here back in 2009, this process went off the rails. the republicans on the intelligence committee had initially endorsed the idea of a study by 2009 for a variety of reasons and there is even debate over that, they got off it and we ended up where we are. >> actually, the partisanship, i was on capitol hill all week long, if you look at those votes, the committee voted 14-1 to start off with this in the begin

john brennan and cia official position it's unknowable whether it works. and that i think is a big change and really speaks volumes to the effectiveness. >> schieffer: thank you. we'll have to end it there. we'll hear from the chairman of the house intelligence committee, mike rogers, later in the broadcast. we'll talk about the other big story topic of conversation race in america. i have a cold with terrible chest congestion. better take something. theraflu severe cold doesn't treat chest congestion. really? new alka-seltzer plus day powder rushes relief to your worst cold symptoms plus chest congestion. oh, what a relief it is. here we go! bob yesterday civil rights leaders and families and supporters of victims eric garner, michael brown held a national day of protest in washington tens of thousands marched demanding better treatment of minorities at the hands of police, among speakers of eric garner's mother. >> you know our son, they may not be here in body but they are -- >> schieffer: -- and everyone of you. >> you brought them here today. >> schie

brennan calls it unknowable.nformation could have been obtained without the harsh interrogation. while he would not call it torture, he did not use the word torture, brennan admitted some officers used techniques that went beyond what was legally authorized. >> a number of cases, agency officers used interrogation techniques that had not been authorized, were abhorrent and rightly should be repudiated by all. the detainees subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques provided information that was useful and used in the ultimate operation to go against osama bin laden. i'm not going to attribute that to the use. >> top bush administration officials fighting a firestorm by the senate 500-page torture report. bush-era lieutenant michael mukasey said it did not violate the law. michael hayden argued that rectal rehydration was not an interrogation technique at all. >> jake, i'm not a doctor and neither are you. i'm told this is one of the ways the body is rehydrated. >> are you really defending? >> i'm defending hi

he said it's unknowable. he said some of the people who did who were put under those techniques ultimately did provide intelligence but said you simply can't know because if it was because of the techniques used. do you agree? >> sean was very careful and quite nuanced. and what he said was the information from detainees was useful and they were, these detainees, also subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques. the meaning of his words is that the information, which he confirms elsewhere in his comments, the report is devastatingly clear about is that the information that was useful that was obtained was obtained by acceptable measures and the information that was obtained through enhanced interrogation techniques was not reliable, as john said. it is a true statement that the detainees provided useful information, period. these detainees, same detainees, were sublted to enhanced interrogation. he makes the distinction between the two. he said so in other words and made the distinction clear that the info

it's an unknowable fact. so i think what the agency's point has been consistently and what certainly my view is after having reviewed the documents is that there was useful intelligence, very useful valuable intelligence that was obtained from individuals who had been at some point subjected to eits. whether that could have been obtained without the use of those eits is something again that is unknowable. i think as others have said recently with the president missed the point that what i think going forward we want to do is to make sure that we're able to do what is necessary to protect this country and we have a very robust counter-terrorism program underway right now. we're working with our partners abroad to make sure we're able to obtain this information from individuals who are captured and that we are able to gain some access to. thank you. >> thanks, ken delaney from the associated press. director brennan, do you agree with president obama's statement that the cia in common parlance tortured detainees

. >> if there is some unknowable value to these techniques to waterboarding, near drowning, slamming people against the wall, hanging them in stress positions, confining them in small boxes or coffins, which of these could be used if as the director of central intelligence, you and another president or this president were faced with imminent threat. >> we, cia, are not in the program. we are not contemplating at all getting back into the program and using any of the iets. >> i am joined by john mccain, the only member of the united states senate who knows firsthand what he is talking about when people debate torture. he and his long time cog eel are the authors of a new book, 13 soldiers, telling the stories of 11 men and two women who fought in the nation's wars. we will talk about that in a moment. we want to talk to you first about the torture report. you spoke on the floor and were very influential thinking the public debate this week. what did you think of director brennan's rebuttal? >> some of it was very interesting. now rather than saying they got information and that they c

cia director john brennan says it's unknowable if cia torture was necessary to get key intelligence in the years after the 2001 attacks. nbc 10 national correspondent steve handelsman is in washington with details and reaction to this public presentation. >> reporter: any cia director holding a news conference is rare. john brennan came to defend his pe people and their response to 9/11. >> this agency did a lot of things right during this difficult time to keep this country strong and secure. >> reporter: now the cia is stunned by the senate report charging much more use of torture than the agency revealed to the white house or congress. >> in some instances, we simply failed to live up to the standards that we set for ourselves. >> reporter: on a big issue, whether torture worked to get osama bin lauden, brennan called the eits for enhanced interrogation techniques and brennan was in the situation room as a white house adviser the night the s.e.a.l.s killed the al qaeda leader. brennan said information from tortured detainees was used, but he said it is not clear that torture was nec

to say it is unknowable, i would disagree. i think it is noble. able..is know i don't know why we would debate the value of it. that was clear to me by all the people we talked to who participated. further ino back time to the benghazi report. one of the conclusions you reached was this. there was no intelligence failing. of report describes a number instances. i would like to hear what you characterize them as. the cia was unaware that their route to the diplomatic compound had been blocked that evening. totook them 42 minutes travel a mild. they didn't know the libyan general who set of transportation from the airport was untrustworthy and had turned off his phone. iny allow the analysts washington reading bad news accounts to dictate what happened instead of asking the stasis chief and other witnesses, which is why we had the talking point problem for so long. if that is not an intelligence failing, what is it? the broaders question, what is an intelligence failure. anytime there is a successful attack that is an intelligence failure. the intel

and so to say that it is unknowable, i am not sure -- i would disagree with that. i think it is knowable. again america has made the , decision, we did not want to do it this way, which is what we had legislation and all of that. that part to me we have settled. i do not know why we would debate the value of it. that to me was clear by all of the people we talked to who participated. >> i am going to go back further in time to benghazi and the benghazi report. one of the conclusions you reached in it was that there was no intelligence failing, and yet the report describes a number of instances that i do not know what they are, and i would like to hear what you are characterizing them as, the cia apparently was unaware that their route to the diplomatic compound had been blocked. that evening. so it took them 42 minutes to travel a mile. they did not know the libyan general who set up transportation from the airport was untrustworthy and turned off his phone. and they allowed the analysts here in washington reading bad news accounts to dictate what had actually take

>> unknowable? >> that's what he said. >> i think it is better than that. i was trained in the report building, interrogation technique, which i think works. however, given the circumstances of which they found themselves in the time in which they found themselves in, with the great unknown of another attack at the time, and remember, we did not have -- we did not really understand all of the way that al qaeda operated. we had pretty good intelligence, but not great intelligence. after that event had happened, there was a time-sensitive era, and one thing about time to make it work. to say it is unknowable, we know there was certainly the events that happened and information that was gleaned that was later used in everything from fully understanding and being able to put pressure on al qaeda to -- when you talk to the people who were in the program, and they adamantly and passionately believed that the information was helpful and useful from enhanced interrogation techniques. >> let me ask another. you said before the release of the senate report that its r

between the use of eits and useful information subsequently provided by the detainee is in my view, unknowable. >> he admitted that the cia made mistakes. >> i cannot say with certain whether or not individuals acting with complete honesty. >> but he would not call it tore h -- torture. >> water boarding, beatings, conditions so brutal, one prisoner froze to death. and other things. he said that he did did the though know fully what was going on back then. >> there was many things in the record that i read that were concerning and disturbing to me. >> now, they have called for him to resign. president obama has made strong statements against these practices. >> that is not who we are. that's not how we operate. >> the white house saying that torture under mines the morale authority and standing in the world. how does it not under mine the moral authority to do keep people on that were involved during that era. >> those individuals that are serving the president of the united states right now are not engaged and supporting a policy of interrogation techniques. i suppose those individuals did no

>> unknowable? >> that's what he said. >> i think it is better than that. i was trained in the report building, interrogation technique, which i think works. however, given the circumstances of which they found themselves in the time in which they found themselves in, with the great unknown of another attack at the time, and remember, we did not have -- we did not really understand all of the way that al qaeda operated. we had pretty good intelligence, but not great intelligence. after that event had happened, there was a time-sensitive era and one thing about time to make it work. to say it is unknowable, we know there was certainly the events that happened and information that was gleaned that was later used in everything from fully understanding and being able to put pressure on al qaeda to -- when you talk to the people who were in the program, and they adamantly and passionately believed that the information was helpful and useful from enhanced interrogation techniques. >> let me ask another. you said before the release of the senate report that its re

the cause-and-effect relationship between the use of eit's and useful information is unknowable. irrespective of the role in eit's might play, i believe effective noncoercive methods are available to elicit sus intimation. methods that do not have a counterproductive impact on our national security and honor international standing. it's for these reasons that i support the president's decision to prohibit the use of vat's. host: here are the numbers if you would like to respond. "the los angeles times" leads with that story. "the new york times" editorializes what has been going on between the senate and john the report brennan's press conference. what is your reaction to all of this? scott, good morning. caller: good morning. these terrorists are in the business of killing it. they are in the business of killing americans. now we have the news that isis has beheaded for christian children. that was in the news this morning. my question is to all of those who continue to show compassion and concern for these people who want to destroy us, does the fact that isis committing these

between the use of eits and useful information subsequently provided by the detainee is in my view unknowable. >> john brennan admitted the cia made mistakes. >> i cannot say with certainly whether or not individuals acted with complete honestly. >> but he would not call it torture. brennan, the cia deputy director when these tactics were used. one froze to death. director brennan said he dependent b know fully what was going on back then. >> there were many things that i read in that report that were very concerning and disturbing to me. >> now mark eudall has called fr brennan to resign. the president made strong statement against these practice ps. another white house, emphatic that torture undermines america's moral authority and standing in the world. yet brennan and fbi director james comey, president bush's deputy attorney general remained in this administration. >> how does it not undermine our moral authority to keep people people on who were in that era.. >> those individuals are not engaged and are not supporting a policy of enhanced interdags techniques. and the reason he's not do