they were seen in europe as having a history in european ghettos and they became sort of unphysical. you know, in their heads instead of in their bodies. that was the idea. you can argue whether or not it was true or not, but that was the idea of the sort of diaspora jew who lived in exile. and the early zionists very much wanted jews who were physical, who defended themselves. so having an army became more than just about defending the country, it became a statement of the new kind of jew that was going to come out of the second world war. >> rose: when israel was created it was a triumph of zionism. >> yes. >> rose: where is zionism today? >> well, it's a strange thing. the zionists were kind of revolutionaries and you can sort of think about it. they were part of all the other revolutionary movements of the 20th century that we know. except it succeeded and it was basically good and now you have this state. but now so much effort was put into building the state, now it's sort of like zionism has kind of grown old, you know? and young people don't want to be... consider themselves