tom kain said they were unrecoverable. he said he told kate. did she tell you they were uncoverable? >> she did not. >> that's a problem. why not tell us april 4th when this committee was briefed. the briefing was about how we would deal with how the irs was going to deal with committee requests for concerns about the lost or april 4th. miss duval could have told the committee at that time? >> i've testified at some length in the past that our -- earlier today -- >> sheert key question. why not in mid april when you knew let's puts up the slide. this is a question we had earlier in one of our hearings. why not when you knew -- what date did you learn you could not get all of her e-mail? i learned that in april. why not april? >> as i testified then and i've testified on numerous occasions, my judgment was, a, we needed to find out what e-mails we did have. we needed to put together it in a full report, which we did. >> why not any time in april? someone at the irs told someone at treasury who told someone at the white house, according to press

did she tell you they were unrecoverable? >> she did not tell me they were unrye coverable. >> that's a problem. why not tell us april 4 when ms. duval briefs this committee, and the briefing was about how we would deal with, how the irs was going to deal with committee requests for concerns about the lost or, excuse me, producing lois lerner's e-mails. didn't know they were lost at that time. why didn't you tell us april 4th? >> i testified at some length in the past and earlier today -- >> here's the key question, let me jump in here a second. why not mid april when you knew. in fact, let's put you the slide. this is the question we had earlier in one of our hearings. why not when you knew, what date did you learn you could, you could not get all of her e-mail? i learned that in april. why not april? >> as i testified then and i testified on numerous occasions, my judgment was, a, we needed to find out what e-mails we did have. we needed to put it together in a full report, which we did. >> why not anytime in april. someone

we've already determined that her hard drive is unrecoverable. was that ever in the back of your mind when you're answering questions from members of congress in four different committees over the time period when you've already learned significant facts, even though in your mind as part of your testimony you didn't fully know we lost them all for good, even though you sort of knew it was pretty darn likely you lost them all for good in the back of your mind, did you think, you know what, maybe i should fully disclose what the real status is of ms. learner's e-mails. >> no, as i testified in the past -- >> that didn't enter your mind at all? >> i didn't know there were e-mails lost. i personally didn't know and that's what i was testifying about until the middle of april. and i stayed before in several hearings. when i testified on march 26th, i did not know her e-mails were not recoverable. >> but this is yourself testimony right here i'm reading this. this is the testimony in the mid march 2014 timeframe, learned the data stored on her computer

did she tell you they were unrecoverable? >> she did not tell me they were unrecoverable. >> why not tell us april 4 when ms. duvall briefs this committee, both republicans and democrats staff members, and the briefing was how we would deal with -- how the i.r.s. would deal with committee requests for concerns about the loss or, excuse me, producing lois lerner's emails? ms. duvall could have told the committee at the time. >> i testified at some length in the past that our -- and earlier today -- >> here's the key question. let me jump in here a second. why not mid april when you knew? in fact, let's put up the slide. here's a question we had earlier in our hearings. hy not when you knew, what secretary of state -- what date did you learn could you not get her emails? >> as i testified then and i testified on numerous occasions, my judgment was, a, we needed to find out what emails we did have. we needed to put together -- >> why not any time in april. someone at the i.r.s. told someone at treasury who then told the white ho

we knew in mid-february that the data on her computer was unrecoverable. or how about the hearing we have talked a lot about. why not on march 26? everyone asked you about her e-mails and you assured us that you would produce all of her e-mails. according to mr. kane, you knew in mid-february her e-mails were unrecoverable. >> that is what mr. kane new that is not what i knew. >> that is something you should have known. he is a high-ranking official. >> i did not know. >> do you know kate devault? >> i do know. >> what is their responsibility? >> she is counselor to the commissioner. >> she is your lawyer. she knew in mid-february. >> what she told me and i testified at some length. what i have told you in mid-to-late february i knew that we had taken the e-mails that had been produced and instead of looking at them -- >> she did not tell me they were unrecoverable. >> why not tell us on april 4 when she briefed this committee? it was about how we would deal with committee requests for concerns about the e-mails? why didn't you tell us on april 4? >> i hav

his chief counsel knew in mid february that lois lerner's computer hard drive was unrecoverable. they didn't tell us until june 14th of thisser i don't. four months. >> uninformed, incompetent in thinks job or deceitful. >> it's hard to say. >> what are you leaning towards. >> i think he isn't being square with us. >> that's a plight -- polite way of being deceitful. >> i asked him. why didn't you tell us in april when you said you did know. why did you wait all the way to june 13th? my theory is. this judicial watch does a foia request, they get email from the justice department. they forward the justice department. they get email that shows he was talking with lois lerner in 2013. woe bring in mr. pill gear in. >> right before the inspector general's report went published, this is may of 2013 before. >> right before? >> actually days before. the email was two days before she went public. so we bring him, in we find out he not only talked to her then but in 2010. >> about what in 2010? about targeting? >> yes. about the whole citizens united case about the whole subject matter.

irs officials learned early february of 2014, february of this year, lois lerner e-mails were unrecoverable. yet they did not alert officials until four months later. now they are calling for independent prosecutor written a letter to the deputy who says "we strongly encourage you to a general to have a special prosecutor to thoroughly investigate why he delayed informing congress, the justice department and the people about the destruction of evidence to congressional and criminal investigations." on top of that the committee wants to know why so many people opposed to lois lerner at the irs also had their hard drives fail. >> it is clear there was a convenient loss of far more data by far more people than it explained by the normal probabilities. >> elijah cummings continues to lead republicans on a fruitless fishing exhibition. >> the irs has already spent $18 million responding to the investigations and now testifying before congress for the fourth time, yet the committee members were informed yesterday they will hold another hearing on the topic next wednesday. >> his test wha one has

. >> when you lose seven computers simultaneously go down, with their hard drives unrecoverable, thenyou, you get used to be able to able to do things like shut out the media. could you imagine this in ka aspirina? if the government tried to shoot down the news there? this is what they do and in theened all about upon continues. xhount sense -- >> so congressman cuellar, said the same thing. he compared it to hurricane ka tina's moment for president george w. bush, that now turning into what it would seem commensurate for president obama. >> that's absolutely right. we have no evident that this temperature of -- i'm sorry of immigrants rmt already stopped. katrina was a one-time horrific event. both sides are playing politics, and democrats and republicans, as you suggest, harris, are rightly being cry call of all sides. >> you know, both parties have wings of the parties. the left of the democrats, they want to let everybody in, already? register and vote them democrat. >> half of the republican party wants to let them in to be cheap, off the books label to undercut the labor force.

. >> the emails in question are lost because of a hard drive crash that is apparently unrecoverable. than two years of eve males for the woman at the center of this investigation go missing. >> my computer breaks or it crashes my hard drive how does the exchange server lose all those emails? >> that's the thing, it doesn't. >> the administration and the irs have shown contempt for congress. >> you can't keep six months' worth of emilyee emails? >> well, it turns it out that lois lerner's emails may not be missing after all. for weeks insisting that the emails were lost in a computer crash. and now, suddenly, a top irs official telling congress is he uncertain whether backup tapes of those emails still exist or not. darrell issa joins us, good evening, sir nchesz good evening, greta it does appear from the interview with cain that in fact they didn't destroy them all. they didn't overright them all or at least they are not sure. >> all right. well what do you know and why are you just learning this now? >> we are just learning it now because they didn't take our order to preserve docu

information that conflicts with the earlier statements that the data was unrecoverable. it's clear the i.r.s. refused to be fully forthcoming and their behavior continues to raise serious questions about potential criminal wrongdoing and the targeting of conservative groups. here in the house we are committed to oversight, transparency, and ensuring we get the answers we need in the pursuit of understanding what really happened. i yield back. >> for what purpose does the gentleman from iowa seek recognition? >> to address the house for one minute. revise and extend my remarks. the speaker pro tempore: without objection, the gentleman is recognized for one minute. >> madam speaker, i rise to speak out against the misguided efforts to reduce or redeal the renewable fuel standard. the r.f.s. was act enacted in 2005 to improve our equipment, environment, and energy independence. mr. braley: moufer it's currently threatened by a e.p.a. draft proposal that would roll it back and is highlighted in a recent opt ed by senators chuck grassley and klobuchar, to protect its market s

martha: new fears terrorists are working to build a stockpile of unrecoverable bonds.-moving wildfire forcing people from their homes. coming up we will tell you how that battle is going. martha: plus president obama saying he will bypass congress once again this time on immigration. lou dobbs is here with his take on that. >> 140,000 illegal immigrants pouring across the border next year, it is completely out of control, and to help all americans, what we need is a moratorium both legal and illegal. don't wait for awesome... totino's pizza rolls... ...gets you there in just 60 seconds. eric: cruiser battling a fire in san jose, california. two firefighters have been hospitalized with heat related issues. temperatures have hit the triple digit mark yesterday. about 10 people have been forced from their homes as a precaution. they were allowed to return back home and officials said the all clear a few hours later. they say the flames are 75% contained as of today, and thankfully lower temperatures forecast so they should be able to handle it. martha: security measures c

crash and it found out just days later that the harddrive had been recycled and its contents were unrecoverable. that's why we continue to have hearings. that's why we have mr. koskinen back for the third time in a month. we would like to get some straight answers. we have convened this hearing because today, over a month after the first irs told congress it lost ms. lerner's e-mails, there are still many unanswered questions. there are still unanswered questions about why the irs delays notifying us about the problems with ms. lerner's e-mail. the deputy attorney general cole told us last week that the justice department learned of the missing e-mails from press accounts in the media. i mean, imagine that. one of the highest profile investigations in years, and the justice department has to learn about critical evidence by the central player in this investigation, they learn about that in news accounts, not directly from the internal revenue service. that's why last week sitting at this very table where mr. koskinen sits today, depitary attorney general cole said he would have liked to have kn

he previously told investigators that the hard drive data was deemed unrecoverable back in 2011 when the computer of lois lerner crashed. >>> meeting will come to order. i want to thank our witness for being here again. and we'll start with some opening statements. i'll start first by recognizing mr. issa. >> i know that this is unprecedented to have a commissioner of the irs in front of this committee so often, and appreciate the fact that you've been willing to be briefed and participate, even beyond our request at times. as we continue to explore a number of questions, the timeline of the crash. the inconsistency of the probability of lost e-mails by multiple people within government, we appreciate that you were not in government. you were not doing this at the time. but as you can imagine, not just the internet, not just fox, but america is beginning to question how convenient so many e-mails of so many people at the heart of targeting conservative groups for their views, for their politi politics, and for the fact that citizens united was objected to by the president, how many o

critical to this investigation, coins dentsally, their hard drives crashed and their e-mails are unrecoverablethink it's a credible story and we still have yet to get full answers to the questions that we've been asking. we're not going to stop. >> your words echoing what a loft people were thinking while watching. today your budget committee has a hearing how the federal government can better fight poverty. what's going on with that? >> we're bringing in people who are on the front lines of fighting poverty, getting people off of welfare and to lives of dignity and work. we want to learn lessons from them. we've had 50 years on the war on poverty and the poverty rates haven't changed. we think we need to do better than that. we're learning from people who are on the front lines, like catholic charities, who is succeeding at getting people into good lives and good jobs and we want to learn from them. right now we have a cookie cutter, one size fits all poverty management system at the federal level and we think we need to do another round of welfare reform like we did in the late 1990s. >> i k