many years ago, upton sinclair wrote a classical study of journalism. he said that the advertising model does not work. clearly, it does work, but the main thing that is missing from what everyone has been talking about so far is the consumer. when i read long form of journalism, which i write, i print it out. when i mounted an investigation of the region's last year of california, i collected about $7,000 from individuals and parlayed it into six print journeys, seven weeklies. got a lot of national coverage. it made some difference in people's lives, but i did not take a dime from any corporation. ok? so let's talk about how we go back to the model where people who need investigation, news -- because my duty is not to reflect corporations. let us not be proud that we are moving forward because we do not have journalist unions anymore. that's going back to selling the news that people need, and get rid of the middle man, which is turning out to be a lot of publishers. >> first, thank you for bringing that up. a great question. it gives me the opportuni

there are people like lincoln steffens and ida tarbell and upton sinclair i guess are the most famous many come forward to the 60's and now you see more of that kind of critical you know intellectual emergence in the american press. there's a market for stories that dig in and to give people like halberstam. >> guest: all the great investigative reporting teams he put together both for regional, national and international pieces. he was a real trendsetter that time toward looking at the big issues, not just the small ones and set the pace for really an awful lot of -- at the time. >> guest: it was not a widespread occupation. let's put it that way. "the new york times" basically did very little. you had a -- massacre. that would have been a logical place for it. a little news service and little papers around the country. >> host: . [inaudible] >> guest: no, that was -- seymour hersh but he was at the times wasn't he? >> guest: no. later he was. >> guest: the times was very late in coming to investigative reporting. >> host: why is it that we have so little investigative reporting toda

there's people like that against a fence and ida tarbell and upton sinclair is the most famous. and then you come forward to the 60s and now you see more of that kind of critical, intellectual consciousness emerge as the market for stories that take in and you get people like oliver sin. what you meant you cannot. >> guest: neil cherbourg, bob greeted newsday and all the great investigative reporting team to put together, both for regional, national and even international cases, was a real trendsetter at the time, looking at the big issues, not just the small ones. so they set the pace for a lot of businesses at the time. just go to not a widespread occupation, let's put it that way. "the new york times" actually did very little. you had a meal and massacre. that would've been a logical place for it. with a little news service in little papers around the country. >> host: [inaudible] >> guest: now, that was seymour hersh. >> host: he was -- >> guest: no, literacy was. most people tend not to think about it. >> host: why is it we had so much literary reporting today? is it becaus

i'm thinking ida tarbell, upton sinclair, rachel carson. >> yes. i think one of the interesting things about many of the books here are that they not only created social movements but some even lead to legislation, so we see the jungle in here and we know that it really created the forerunner legislation to the food and drug administration being created. not only social movements but actually legislation, actually social change. >> y. 88? >> 88 is where we decided to stop. we were worried about using a number that commonly was associated with a definitive list so we avoided 10, 25 and 100. beyond that it was kind of up for grabs the moment got to 88 we said we think that's a good number. it won't get anybody the impression that we

tar bell, upton sinclair. >> yes, one of the interesting it things about many of the books, they not only created social movements but some even lead to legislation. so we see the "jungle "in here it created the forerunner legislation to food and drug administration being created response not only social movements, but actually legislation actually social change. >> why 88? >> 88 is really just where we decided to stop. we were worried about using a number that is commonly associated with a definitive list. we avoided, ten, twenty five, and 100. beyond that it was up for grabs. when we got 88 we said we think that's a good number. it won't give anybody the impression that we mean this is the 88. running the span of at least two centuries we have walt whitedman. we have allen begins berg. we try to be very clear that poetry has been an impressive part of america's history and that americans have been very committed to both writing and reading poted poetry. i think it continues today. >> what about religious book >>. >> we have a holographic bible. a lot of the books they wouldn't nece

things are not the same said they were when upton sinclair wrote "the trouble." -- "the jungle."hey have to change their message and change their product. it continues to be a message they cannot seem to pick up on. if you look at -- that we talk about this in the context of right to work lots. sometimes the unions and others say if you support these laws, you must be anti-union. that may explain exactly what i right to work law is. all it does say is in no state you can and an exemption that says you can organize workers in a union, but you cannot threaten them with a loss of their jobs if they do not pay union dues. and right to work laws, many people belong to a union, but you cannot say if you did not paid them dues, you cannot be fired. all the other panoply of protections under the national labor elections -- relations act, are all still there. what is the big deal? it is that unions and those kinds of cases have to convince workers they have a product that workers will support, that they should purchase. what is the big deal about that if in fact you have a service that wo

for the different behavior changes to happen, so we are looking for the upton sinclair cybersecurity. >> it's a jungle. >> one of the things that has come up in your discussions or the counterfeit chips, you missed some fairly high level open source concerns about the green market components showing that in places they shouldn't and the implications, so what would you say the mechanisms are putting in place the limit for the counterfeit product from reaching the marketplace and there for reaching our critical infrastructure. >> this is not my purview. we have an entire operation. i think in the pentagon when you wanted to get a lot of people that meetings ten years ago you use the word transformation command five years ago you use the word cyber and now you use the word supply chain. it's amazing how many people are interested in it these days, but there's a whole group of individuals at the dod and within the services looking specifically at that question. i tend to look at it. my portfolio is from the industrial base how we arrive and interact with the industrial base but it's a ve

so we are looking for the upton sinclair cybersecurity. >> it's a jungle. it really is. so, one of the things that has come up during your discussions here are the question of the counterfeit ships and there's some fairly high level open source concerns about the market components and chip showing up in places they shouldn't and the implications, so what would you say the mechanisms are putting in place a leche reaching the marketplace and reaching the critical infrastructure. >> we have an entire operation. in the pentagon when you wanted to get a lot of people at the meetings ten years ago you use the word transformation command five years ago you use the word cyber and supply chain and it's amazing how many people are interested in it these days. but there's a whole group of people at dod and in the service is looking specifically at that question. i tend to look at it. my portfolio was from the base how we arrived and interact with the industrial base. but it's a very serious to alleged i can't tell you that the supply chain folks under osd and each of the services a