jordan chang joins us from forbes.com.the book "nuclear showdown: north korea takes on the world." even if the sanctions are aimed at the north korean government aren't the people continuing to pay the price? >> i don't think so. largely because these sanctions are indeed aimed at those three organizations, one of them involved in the hacking. two others involved in the sales of ballistic missiles and technology. and those are out of north korea. this will not affect the north korean people. it will affect the regime. though i think it's not going to have much of an effect because they were designed not to be effective to be sharp across the bow. >> so how deeply will it affect the regime? >> well the only way it will really affect the regime is to cut off the money flow. and we know how to do that. we did that in 2005 when the bush administration went after the north korea regime. and was actually quite effective. north korean diplomats were actually carrying cash around in suit cases because the regime couldn't use the g

. >>> also helping us dig deeper on this story, deputy special envoy for human rights on north korea during the bush administration. also gordon chang from forbes.comorea takes on the world." i want everybody to stand by. let's continue this conversation. new information coming in on north korea cyberwarfare. we will take a quick break. ♪ turn around ♪ ♪ every now and then i get a little bit hungry ♪ ♪ and there's nothing good around ♪ ♪ turn around, barry ♪ ♪ i finally found the right snack ♪ [ female announcer ] fiber one. please! no. run of the mill, everyday headache. please? no. please. please. please. nope not bad enough for a lot of medicine pleeaassee! but still bad enough that you want it gone fast. please! please go talk to your father. introducing excedrin mild headache. 35% less medicine plus a booster to end everyday headaches fast. please! oh, what a headache! actually...my headache's gone. this new excedrin really does work fast. the national headache foundation gives it a seal of approval for everyday headaches. new excedrin mild headache. wow, that was fast! push your enterprise and you can move the world. ♪ ♪ but to get from the o

from beijing. with us in the situation room now, our guest, steven yates, christian whiten, a deputy special envoy for human rights in north korea during the bush administration and gordon chang, a columnist for forbes.coms on the world. if this so-called bureau 121 location the operation is so much public knowledge, why do the chinese allow this to go on. why have they intervened? >> they must be okay with its operations. and of course china itself is one of the leading sources of cyber attacks against the united states and the united states interests around the world. so it wouldn't be too shocking for to us realize the chinese government says they don't condone or support anything like this happening on its territory. but they themselves do this. >> what do we know gordon, about these hack here's make up this so-called bureau 121? are any names of active members out there? are they all north koreans? do they outsource or hire chinese or hire europeans? hire middle easterners hire americans for all, for the possibility of getting the best hackers out there? >> yeah unit 121 has outsourced a lot of their work. the hack on sony which is generally considered to be a unit 121 venture. essentially worked l