when valerie plame was outed as a u.s. spy, it set off an international controversy that reached high into the bush white house in 2007. valerie plame published a bestseller about the ordeal called "fair game." on november 5 the movie by the same name opens in theaters across the country. we're glad you've joined us. the conversation with former c.i.a. agent valerie plame wilson and ambassador joe wilson coming up right now. >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i'm james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference. >> thank you. >> you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and every answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and improve obstacles to empowerment one nation at a time. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] tavis: when jonas robert novak exposed

we have a clip from the film that shows valerie plame played by naomi watts talking to plame's cia boss. >> i know it's not easy but i want you to know how much the agency appreciates your silence in the light of this matter. we can't afford to have this knife fight go on any longer. >> i get death threats every day. people threaten to kill my husband, hurt my children. i went to the agency and i requested security to protect my family. i was declined because, quote, my circumstances fall outside the budget protocols. if this is a knife fight, sir, right now we're fighting it alone. >> wilson versus the white house, huh? i feel as a friend i should tell you that those men, those few men in that building over there are the most powerful men in the history of the world. >> the movie's director joins us here today. welcome welcome, doug. the movie is the story of wmd and the white house effort to perpetuate the myth that there were weapons of mass destruction was powerful. in the book, president bush's memoirs, he says the single sentence in my -- he's talking about his state of the union

>> i think, you know, this film, again, is not really about valerie plame.t's about abuse of power by the white house. and this is not the first time the white house in our country's history has abused power. in this particular case, it involved a decision to go to war. there really is no more serious decision the president of the united states makes than to go to war. so to have abused the power of the white house and to manipulate the country to the extent which they did for a decision that's as solemn as going to war, that's the story that i want to tell. >> the deception about wmd i think we all now appreciate and understand. the question that i have is what did the white house gain by outing valerie plame? what was the -- sort of the political game, or was it just retributi retribution? was it venom? i don't see their political purpose there. >> i don't know, and unlike other hollywood filmmakers who might make up a scene, you know, and just make up a scene in the white house, i stuck to scenes that actually took place. you'd appreciate it as a lawyer t

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anyway, congratulations on being married to valerie plame. hell of a movie here. hell of a movie and hell of a person that naomi watts played so perfectly. michael, you broke the story, as always. broke every story i've been living through, my friend. former president bush, let's crack this case. let's talk about the book. well, it's the bush exit strategy. we'll get to his answers and dark spots in his presidency, katrina, torture, the collapse on wall street all on his watch. you're watching "hardball," on on msnbc. senator-elect joe manchin is planning to switch parties. fox news and others on the right speculated that he could jump ship and become a republican after winning a close race in which he ran away from president obama in washington on many issues, but his spokesman says the popular governor is a lifelong democrat and he's not switching. "hardball" back after this. our professors know. because they've been there. and they work closely with business leaders to develop curriculum to meet the needs of top businesses. which means when our graduates walk i

this is a depiction of real life, or at least as close to the real-life story of valerie plame, joe wilsonstarting naomi watts and sean penn. we'll take a look and see if you thought this was a believable story. >> right, you said it right there. that's what this film is about. i liked it. it was a good film, not amazing but a good film if you like political thrillers. that's how i would describe this picture. the acting is terrific. this movie had its start back in may and now it's being released in theaters. it's only playing in select markets around the country. in fact, this weekend it will make about $1 million. not huge but respectable. and it's a good story. they do a good job of having the husband-wife dynamic. she's a spy that getted outed by the government, the bush administration. and they're fighting to save their marriage, raising children. so it's -- it doesn't go too much into the politics which is what i liked about the film. this movie is not like that. if you do like those actors, i think they're commanding enough to gauge your interest throughout the 106 minutes you'll b

this is the part will valerie plame learns she's been outed as a cia act. >> never worked for the cia -- >> as an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. he just went ahead and did it. >> did this run overseas? >> it's in the newspaper, valerie. novack's column is he syndicated overseas? >> everywhere. >> well, the number of people that had a hand in outing her, you could argue in terms of reporting to the press were, as you know, michael, fleischer said something to pincus, novak said something to miller. there were a lot of people out there talking. >> right. it was, it was -- look, dick armitage of the state department was the first one to disclose valerie plame's name to novak, but the white house jumped on it very quickly on their own. before novak wrote his column, rove was confirming it. ari fleischer got out there and dumped this information on him and judy miller got it from scooter libby. so, there is definitely a white house effort to use this information for whatever. >> to destroy joe wilson's wife. ambassador wilson, your view watching the film and putting it to

in that, he talks about how -- the office of valerie plame.mber two leak.ç that was karl rove to write about the case -- coming to terms with the darker moments of his presidency. >> you cannot be saying that silly episode is the darkest moment. david, you are involved in trivial pursuit as usual. >> that's what he talked about with dick cheney. >> what was the significance of this thing? it's a minor matter. >> cia operations were blown because of this. >> to be continued. appreciate very much. pat buchanan and david corn. >>> next, lisa murkowski is headed to a third term. she's making bigger headlines by bashing sarah palin. that's ahead. this is "hardball," only on msnbc. what is that? oh, i'm a fidelity customer. okay, but what does it do? well, it gets me the tools and research i need to help me make informed decisions. with fidelity, i can invest in stocks, bonds, all at a great price. wow. yeah, wow. ♪ [ male announcer ] fidelity investments. turn here. >>> is this the final nail in michael steele's political cough in? one of his aide

sean penn just played his part in a movie about the outing of a cia agent, valerie plame. sounds off on the lies and deception next in the playbook. our expertise, and working with people who are changing the face of business in america. after 25 years in the aviation business, i kind of feel like if you're not having fun at what you do, then you've got the wrong job. my landing was better than yours. no, it wasn't. yes, it was. was not. yes, it was. what do you think? take one of the big ones out? nah. >>> and it's not too late to let us know what you think. tonight's text survey question is, do you agree with rush limbaugh's remark that democratic party leaders, white racist? ♪ for he's a jolly good fellow ♪ the meeting's tomorrow in dallas ♪ ♪ we need to finish those projections ♪ ♪ then output the final presentations ♪ ♪ sally, i'm gonna need 40 copies, obviously collated ♪ what's going on? when we're crunched for time, brad combines office celebrations with official business. it's about efficiency. [ courier ] we can help. when you ship with fedex, you can work right

have inaccurately stated that former dick cheney top aide lewis scooter libby convicted of outing valerie plameally convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice in the course of the plame investigation. we regret the error. >>> the debt and the deficit and how they affect your future and your children's future. the fox all-stars join me to discuss it when we return. >>> we are borrowing 40 cents of every dollar we spend. that cannot continue for much longer. it is totally unsustainable. if we stay on the course we are on today, we are headed for a debt that will be 400% of the gross domestic product of the united states. people on the left who don't want to touch entitlements, that is just unrealistic. the idea that nothing has to be done is divorced from reality. i would say look at other countries and see what happens to the most vulnerable when the countries have become deeply indebted. >> bret: two moderate democrats talking about the entitlement issue, how crucial is it to deal with it quickly despite that many on the campaign trail, including pelosi and obama talked about republican re

he wanted the president to pardon his aide scooter libby who was convicted of outing valerie plame.ident decided to only commute the sentence. jury verdict should be respected, he wrote. in one of our final meetings, i informed dick i would not issue a pardon. the vice president was not happy. he stared at me with an intense look. i can't believe you are going to leave a soldier on the battlefield, he said. one of the biggest controversies was the response to hurricane katrina. the former president writes that in mississippi # 0 miles of coastline been obliterated. it missed northerly enbut as a storm approached, a worried governor bush called the governor. what's going on in new orleans, he asked. the mayor had not ordered a mandatory evacuation and the president implored the governor to step in. the mayor has got to order people to leave. that is the only way they'll listen. call him and tell him. the mayor finally did but when the flooding came, the federal government couldn't help unless asked. you was stuck with a resistant governor, mr. bush writes, and an antiquated law. i wa

valerie plame's name should not have been revealed. that was irresponsible. in fact, i don't think i ever had a colleague that would have done that. she was doing bornt secret work. they destroyed her career. >> larry: james rubin what do you make of this. >> it's a compelling read. i've enjoyed reading them. somehow an organization that was originally intending to perhaps affect the debate in this country about the iraq war, say, or the war in afghanistan has somehow morphed into an anti-american organization whose very purpose appears to be to weaken the ability of state department diplomats to do their job. and the irony, larry, is that diplomats at the state department have really not many tools at their disposal. it's not the pentagon who has weapons or the treasury department that has financial wherewithal. the state department's tool is the trust it develops with governments, diplomats in those countries, human rights workers in those countries or others who are sharing information based on trust. and no matter what any of the organization's proponents

>> there's a one-page description of the whole valerie plame leak case that led to the issue of whetherre should be a pardon or not. he leaves out who was the number two leak. the confirming source was was karl rove. to write about the case -- coming to terms with the darker moments of his presidency. >> you cannot be saying that silly episode is the darkest moment of any presidency. >> i said a dark moment. >> david, you are involved in trivial pursuit as usual. >> that's what he talked about with dick cheney. that is what led them be at odds. >> what was the significance of this thing? it's a minor matter. >> cia operations were blown because of this. >> gentlemen, to be continued. appreciate very much. pat buchanan and david corn, as always. >>> next, lisa murkowski is headed to a third term.{ she's headed to an impressive write-in campaign victory. she's making bigger headlines by bashing sarah palin. that's ahead. this is "hardball," only on msnbc. >>> is this the final nail in michael steele's political cough in? one of steele's aides quit today. the aide skewered steele and says

president was furious when the president decided not to pardon cheney's aide for his role with valerie plamebush administration and at least one newspaper columnist reveals plame was a secret agent to cast doubt on her report her husband had written about uranium. it questioned whether iraq heal had weapons of mass destruction. the mess is documented in a new movie, fair game, starring naomi watts and sean penn and getting solid reviews. the former president will be on the "today" show and the sbrir interview will run at 8:00. >> the giants may have won the world series, but they are trying to figure out what to do in the off season. over the weekend, he wants to keep playing despite the fact that the giants declined his option. that would have cost the team $9.5 million. it doesn't mean he is moving out of town, but the team may offer him a chance to stay. as for the ever popular "kung fu panda," he could find himself in the minor leagues at the start of the season. the team told pablo sandoval to lose weight and get in shape or report to fresno. they made a big event of operation panda, fe

the movie "fair game" all about the cia agent valerie plame and her outing there. is together. >> hello? >> valerie, turn on msnbc. >> mom -- >> hold on one second. >> they've launched an investigation. ashcroft just announced it. they say he's going to convene a criminal investigation. >> what is your take on that, other than cool that sean penn goes, msnbc, turn it on. >> the most fascinating thing is its unflinching condemnation of the bush administration and allegations that they flagrantly discarded evidence about iraq in order to go to war. top notch acting. critics are really liking this movie. unfortunately, it's not playing very well at the box office. it's getting early oscar buzz for naomi watts. you never can count out sean penn, that's for sure. >> "morning glory" we love this one because it's awe about a young producer who is trying to make her way in the business of early morning broadcast. is this one any good? >> look, if you love morning news or you work in news, you're going to love this. you have to see it. you have to see it, alex. rachel mcadam

>> fair game, valerie plame, the outed operative. >> good cast. >> how much does what we see on the big or say about the white house, about the power of the white house, the power of intelligence, how accurate might this be and what would be your grade if you were a movie critic like the one who is going to be joining us. then face-to-face with who this weekend? russell simmons. you know him as -- he's an incredible businessman, a big mogul. you associate him with music, with fashion. >> with money. >> he's doing to talk a little about that. the definition of rich. he's got a new book out. he's talking about how you get rich. it has nothing to do with the monetary value of things. >> stop it. so says the rich guy. >> i asked him about that. wait a minute. that's easy coming from someone worth millions. he says, no, it's much more than that he has some very revealing things about his business plan how he's never really had a business plan but he's also never really failed at an undertaking. very insightful. he talks about that. of course he's got a reality show, "running russell simmons.

have inaccurately stated that former dick cheney top aide lewis scooter libby convicted of outing valerie plameconvicted of perjury and obstruction of justice in the course of the plame investigation. we regret the error. >>> the debt and the deficit and how they affect your future and your children's future. the fox all-stars join me to discuss it when we return. [ woman ] you know, as a mom, i worry about my son playing football. which is why i'm really excited. because toyot developed this software that can simulate head injuries and helps make people safer. then they shared this technology with researchers at wake forest to help reduce head injuries on the football field. so, you know, i can feel a bit better about my son playing football. [ male announcer ] how would you use toyota technology to make a better world? learn how to share your ideas at toyota.com/ideasforgood. learn how to share your ideas when it comes to investing, no one person has all the answers. so td ameritrade doesn't give me just one person. questions about retirement? i talk to their retirement account specialists. b

>>> tomorrow, i will be live on our nation's capitol, valerie plame and joe wilson, two central figuresinvestigation during the bush administration. >>> thanksgiving a week away, and there's a new study that paints a bleak picture for millions of hungry americans. richard lui, you've good the latest info that came out in the last hour. where does that stand? >> right here it came out at 9:02 when we got it. it's shocking if you just take some time to leaf through the 60 pages of it. today in the united states it says here there are over 17 million children in households that are not getting enough good food to eat. that's a tick up from last year. and if you think about it, think of just five children that you know or that you have, one of them could be these kids i've just described. over one in five children are at risk of living in a house called food insecure. it says the usda, in the report i was mentioning. this can man prolonged involuntary lack of food which can lead to getting sick, feeling week, or pain. if we're talking kids with single mothers, look that the here on your scr

joined by two people, valerie plame and her husband joe wilson.p next. hi. >>> coming up next hour, a 13-year-old girl found bound and gagged a week after disappearing with three other people. so where is her family? >>> groped at the airport. under fire over the touchy topic. a recent incident that has passengers crying foul. >>> why a breed of fish is facing a firing squad. it actually said at this point, ready for this, do it and grill it. >>> we'll be right back. y" earn. oh, that's 'cause fedex ground helps you save money. that's right, penny. do you know ours? heavens to betsy. dwayne the bathtub. magic wanda. yeah! what's mine? uh, you're a dan fool. oh. it's just a device, dan. you can't take it personally. yeah, i suppose. [ male announcer ] we understand. you need a partner who helps you save. fedex ground. this is norma. who's inundated with all the information coming at her concerning the medicare part d changes this year. so she went to her walgreens pharmacist for guidance and a free personalized report that looks at her prescription

the movie "fair game" is coming out, and valerie plame's position in the cia. is it, how is it similar to the position you had and that you write about in your book and how is it different? >> guest: it's completely different. i was an analyst, i was an open employee, i didn't have to hide my cia affiliation. i wasn't -- you know, i didn't offer it voluntarily, but i didn't hide the fact that i was cia whereas valerie plame was -- her connections to the cia were covert, and she was an operative. she went out and did the really very difficult work of trying to get information on the ground. >> host: did you know her at all? >> guest: i didn't know her because she was a covert employee. she wouldn't be hanging around headquarters. >> host: were you covert? >> guest: no, i wasn't. >> host: so if somebody asked you, where do you work, you would have said the cia? >> guest: uh-huh. >> host: not only have you written this novel, but your bio also says you wrote for cat fancy magazine. [laughter] >> guest: i entered a contest. i've always liked writing short stories,

difference over the decision to spare scooter libby a prison sentence rather than pardon him in the valerie plameelationship with cheney eventually recovered and shrugged off criticism. >> when you heard that, cheney is running the white house? >> no. bush's brain knew full well who was running the white house. when you're the president, there's all kinds of things coming at you. it's the nature of the job. >> it certainly is, dan seymour. do you think -- you're not allowed to say, probably, in retrospect, what could he have done better other than the mistakes he agrees to in this book. >> on vice president cheney. he's a divisive figure, certainly around this crowd, delivery of cupcakes not withstanding. >> i like the cupcakes and i like the cheneys. >> i think history will judge him favorably for protecting the country and advising president bush during that time. remember when president bush chose cheney as his running mate. many of the pundits were saying terrible mistake, what regional value does he add? how does he balance out the ticket? candidate bush argued, he would make a great advisor

scooter is a loyal american who worked for vice president cheney who got caught up in this valerie plamee and was indicted and convicted and i chose to commute his sentence. i felt he had paid enough of a penalty. >> critics immediately said, if you're loyal to bush, you don't have to go to prison. so it didn't come without a price. and yet vice president cheney wanted more? >> he did. he wanted me to pardon him. and this is a decision that -- well, the last decision of the presidency, really. and i chose to let to jury verdict stand, after some serious deliberation, and the vice president was angry. >> yeah, when you went to him and you told him, you said he was furious, and you said, he said, "i can't believe you're going to leave a soldier on the battlefield." as your relationship ever covered from failing to give him a pardon? >> it has. i'm pleased to report, it has. >> you're friends today? >> we are friends today. and he gave a very gracious speech on the way out of town at andrews air force base, and yeah, we are friends. i've seen him since, talked to him. and i'm pleased to rep

>> there is another practical one you can think about, which goes back to the valerie plame case. in which you actually went to court and found out that scooter libby was authorized to leaked classified information. it is unclear who gave him the authorization data but other people were leaking to us and nobody cared about it. when you talk about breaking the ice, you have to remember that this game up administration leaking things has been going on for years. i mean, kissinger -- going back to dean rusk, he would have people in every friday for drinks. depending on what is published, and this fits into your point of view of creating openness, people who are on the other side of issues that the government was leaking, and it has gone on in every administration, then feel free because they know something that is contrary to that, whether it is classified or not, to leak it to get in a vault in the debate. it is the fact that people at a higher level, i will bet you if the republicans win the house or senate, you'll have an investigation of that. not because they want to find out th