samuel verner offered many different ages for him. he offered many different accounts of how he was captured and tamed or whatever the word is. but from the best evidence available if anyone has a copy of the book if you look at that picture that picture was taken two years before he was exhibited in the bronx zoo. here is -- he is clearly a child and later in his life he said that he was 13 when he was captured, which would mean when he was in the bronx zoo he would have been 15 and when he died he would have been 25. >> good evening. i want to thank you so botched for shining a light on this young man. also do you have books today for sale? >> yes, i hope so. >> wonderful and then another question is what was life like for him and the howard collier orphanage where they turned children inmates and that type of thing? >> well it was a lot better than being in the bronx zoo monkey house and he was given his own room where he could smoke and do pretty much what he wanted that of course he was still isolated from the children. he could