if you were vetted properly and had the kind of steel that people wanted, if you are violette zarbo, toquette jackson, the kind of spirit, no, it didn't work. it did not work on people who were superhuman in a way. that couldn't be broken. but on many people, it did. i don't think you can have a kind of binary view, successful or not successful. i'd say in general, it doesn't work. i don't think it's a humane policy. hiroshima was not particularly humane either. when we talk about war, we have to -- certainly in the second world war, we have to talk about how we won it. because it was important to win it. any method in the end, 1945 certainly, when we look at world war ii, we have to be honest. we have to say it was mass industrial slaughter. so torture becomes a rather arcane moral argument when one night in tokyo, 121,000 people died from their homes being burned around them. we have to put it in that context. yes, i think torture is wrong. we should never use it. but then, mass industrial slaughter is also something we should question. but what isn't questionable is that it had to

if you were vetted properly and had the kind of steel that people wanted, if you are violette zarbo,n't be broken. but on many people, it did. i don't think you can have a kind of binary view, successful or not successful. i'd say in general, it doesn't work. i don't think it's a humane policy. hiroshima was not particularly humane either. when we talk about war, we have to -- certainly in the second world war, we have to talk about how we won it. because it was important to win it. any method in the end, 1945 certainly, when we look at world war ii, we have to be honest. we have to say it was mass industrial slaughter. so torture becomes a rather arcane moral argument when one night in tokyo, 121,000 people died from their homes being burned around them. we have to put it in that context. yes, i think torture is wrong. we should never use it. but then, mass industrial slaughter is also something we should question. but what isn't questionable is that it had to be done. we had to do anything we could, anything we could do to end that war and be victorious. the consequences of not doi