you spoke a lot about the first president and their view of a virtuous citizenry, what did they mean by that question market what you mean by having virtuous citizens? guest: well the word future was used by each of our first four presidents. what they meant by virtue was something more then just how people hold themselves. whether they just live wholesome lives or not. it had to do with the common good and whether we as individuals could put the good of the country ahead of our own interests. to me, it is fascinating that this is a point that was made particularly by james madison, because madison was a great political realists. realists. he was really the architect of our constitution. he understood that everybody had interest, groups had interests, we had to balance interest to have a country that would function. he also said that no matter how well structured our government is, our political system is, the country is not going to succeed, america is not going to succeed without the virtue of its citizen. that is, it has to be more than just self interest, it has to be more than wh