if anything it was more terrifying than waterboarding. i have to process all of this and i didn't have a lot of time and i could have, you know, right there and then this program out of the cia from the white house or anywhere else was inside the building. there was credibility and influence. it would have some more aggressive techniques. they are risky. they were going to get the agency in trouble, so i could. i thought to myself here the experts are saying they have custody and if anyone knows about and attack its head and makes no bones about it he knew what we wanted to know and couldn't make him tell it. the analysts and psychology operators then sure albeit unprecedented before the only way to get that information out of him and playing with the scenario further. in the aftermath i would have known we didn't take the measures the professionals thought were a sensual and this is what happened as a result and keep in mind. medical we were accused after 9/11 by everybody of having to do the risk averse that they were not aggressive eno

i was not going approve waterboarding. so led us to go immediately to the department of justice to get a definitive legal review of the entire program, but especially waterboarding and the way that our people proposed to carry it out. >> host: and they end up going to the office of legal counsel, the white house legal team, and they end up approving it in memos to you and dod and others. looking back now, -- let me just ask one other question. so, if you thought that there was a history in which this was -- your people unearthed a history where this was considered torture, i can see how you might be worried that your people, even if the white house says okay, that your people might be vulnerable at some point when, again, the pendulum swings and people are starting to rethink. was that also a calculation in your mind? >> guest: yeah. i thought -- the agency, during my time -- there was precedent for us, very important, significant, new legal questions, for us to go to the office of legal counsel, the justice department, ul

who represented the cia and the iran-contra scandal and participated in approving the rules for waterboarding presents an inside look at the agency's evolution from an organization in the shadows to unfrequently epicenter of what occult controversy. this program is about an hour. >> host: john it's good to be here with you. >> guest: it's nice to see you again dana. >> host: i wanted to start in the beginning which is probably the easiest way to go. can you just tell me why you decided to join the cia? >> guest: well it was 1975. i had been out of law school for three years. i had a good job, a good entry-level job at the treasury department as a lawyer and the customs service. as i say it was a good job but you know i found the atmosphere, the bureaucracy at the treasury stultifying. in retrospect i was young and ambitious and i was just restless. at the same time, the church committee hearings were being televised and as you know these were first of all a set of congressional hearings that exposed the cia activities, misadventures and follies from the 50s and 60's chaired by senator franken

. >> host: have you looked up waterboarding you would have found that the u.s. did hang some japanese soldiers because we considered it up waterboarding and the spanish inquisition used it and they consider to torture back then. there is a history of waterboarding overseas although we used it in the philippine. did you have a staff that you asked to look at the history of what reporting? >> guest: we did and we did as much research as we could. i remember coming back and saying this history that you described, and that was one of the reasons why i decided that i wasn't going to make this final call. it was just too close giving the president i just was not certainly going to prove waterboarding so that is what led us to go immediately to the department of justice to get a definitive legal review to the entire program but especially waterboarding in the way that people propose to carry out. >> host: an and they end up goig to the office of counsel which is the white house legal team and they end up approving it in for a man doethe memos to you ad and others. look

man who represent the cia in the iran contra scandal and participated in proving the rules for waterboarding provides an inside look at the agency's evolution from an organization in the shadows to one frequently at the center of political controversy. this program is about one hour. ..

i had no idea what waterboarding was before i was briefed by your counterterrorism team. but you know this was just a few months after 9/11 and time was that the essence. it was thought around the country and certainly washington that it wasn't a matter of if they would attack the homeland but as a matter of when. there wasn't time for deliberation. in my career i have never had to deal with the u.s. anti-torture statute so i had no idea what the legal line was. another one i wasn't able to describe in the book that was never implemented but if anything more terrifying them want her boarding, i had to process all this. i could have right then and there, this program germinated out of the cia. it didn't come from the white house. it was inside the building. it hadn't left the building. i was chief officer and i had been there a long time and i knew i had some credibility. and influence. i know i could've right then and there stopped and stopped it before it started and said these aggressive techniques, forget it they are just real risky. i had been with the agency long eno

republican welcome to the republican party with open arms what happen to the republican party that waterboarding versity more support for minorities that and more in the nights alone were wrong. you need to know this on saturday a florida jury convicted michael dunn of three charges of attempted second degree murder and one charge of. shooting into a vehicle for shooting into an s.u.v. that was full of teenagers after an argument about their loud music that same jury failed to convict on a first degree murder in the death of jordan davis a seventeen year old who was in the s.u.v. earlier today one of the dunn jurors identified only as valerie spoke with a.b.c. news about the case and about what she thought dunn deserved take over. do you think michael dunn got away with murder at this point. i i do myself personally yes when you went to the deliberating room you thought michael dunn was guilty yes or of killing seventeen year old boy yes or what convinced you that to me it was unnecessary he didn't think michael dunn had to kill jordan davis i don't believe most of the jurors she told us agreed

. >>> a man is on trial for waterboarding his stepdaughter. he's charged with child endangerment and assault. his wife said he saw him holding her head underwater running. he said he was washing her hair but she said she never saw any shampoo. >> need to know more about that, but that sounds ridiculous. >>> making a stand of gay rights before the winter games with a rainbow of colors. the images are lighting up social media today. and a look at beatle plain i can't, the iconic band arrived in the u.s. 50 years ago today. oh. >> for weeks supporters of the lesbian gay bu by sexual trans transgender community blasting colors of the rainbow all over sochi, maria? >> reporter: you may have noticed google made a statement when it searched the sochi games. the symbol for lgbt rights. so now folks are noticing the rainbow colors all over sochi starting with the official gloves. so the merchandise includes rainbow spirit sochi gloves. now a lot of people are associating these with lgbt rights. these are the most colorful rainbow-themed outfits. >> ple

we had previous presidents that brought in people to tell them that waterboarding was torture.y justified violating the geneva convention and the coast military justice and the u.n. convention on torture. we could debate which is the better executive orders that were issued. >> no. and that was a real debate there when bush was doing that. >> yes, it was. >> right. >> there's a real criticism of that. there was real criticism of gitmo. but when this president uses unmanned aerial drones to target american citizens violating, my goodness, due process, no search warrant, no arrest warrant, and coming from your side -- >> i agree with you. >> i think on all counts it's things that people rightfully are concerned about because we have a balance of power in this country. it's in the constitution. it's very important that it be upheld. that the branches have a way to check and balance each other. clearly, at least according to this recent people, people aren't happy. >> they don't hold themselves as a standard against other presidents. on far worse issues than the ones we're talking

. >>> in delaware a former pediatrician is on trial for waterboarding his stepdaughter.is wife testified today that she once saw morris holding her daughter's head under running water. morris claims he was washing the girl's hair but his wife said she didn't see any shampoo at the time. >>> the u.s. postal service said it lost $354 million over the last three months. making it hard to do business the remainder of the year. this hit is in addition to the $5 billion deficit reported last fiscal year. congress is trying to figure out a solution on thursday. a senate committee approved a bill to end saturday mail delivery and make a first-class stamp hike from $0.46 to $0.48 permanent. >>> restoring power after an ice storm this week. the state's main utility company said more than 300,000 homes and businesses don't have power in philadelphia alone. crews from other states are helping to restore power throughout the state. >> you were there yesterday. >> reporter: i was there. >> you talked to people about in. >> reporter: a lot of people in very cold homes staying overnight

ou can look at the number of stories in recent years, secret cia prisons, waterboarding, on and on, important stories that only come from classified information. if we do not have a mechanism that allows whistleblowers, our whole society is going to suffer. we cannot count on oversight by congress and the courts to adequately perform certain types of tasks. if we do not acknowledge that and have some safeguard, and hopefully one thing that will be picked up by the review proposals, are things like national security letters and court orders should be subject to the same attorney general guidelines. you do not go after reporters with those. right now, there is just a gray area. none of those national security things need to go through the normal checklist. >> i am going to take questions. somebody has a microphone over ere and then over there. let's start here. ok. and then the back. if anyone has a microphone, can you ask a question? >> hi. my name is daniel. i am from germany as a journalism student. the document in the wiki case and the snowden case were both activist. the documents are not

you can look at the number of stories in recent years, secret prisons, waterboarding, on and on, important stories that only come from classified information. if we do not have a mechanism that allows whistleblowers, our whole society is going to suffer. we cannot count on oversight by congress and the courts to adequately perform certain types of tasks. ledge thatot acknow and have some safeguard, and hopefully one thing that will be picked up by the review proposals, are things like national security letters and court orders should be subject to the same attorney general guidelines. you do not go after reporters with those. right now, there is just a gray area. none of those national security things need to go through the normal checklist. to take questions. somebody has a microphone over there.d then over let's start here. ok. and then the back. if anyone has a microphone, can you ask a question? >> hi. my name is daniel. i am from journalism -- i am from germany as a journalism student. the document in the wiki case and the snowden case were both activist. the documents are not in hold

you can look at the number of stories in recent years, secret cia prisons, waterboarding, on and on, important stories that only come from classified information. if we do not have a mechanism that allows whistleblowers, our whole society is going to suffer. we cannot count on oversight by congress and the courts to adequately perform certain types of tasks. if we do not acknowledge that and have some safeguard, and hopefully one thing that will be picked up by the review proposals, are things like national security letters and court orders should be subject to the same attorney general guidelines. you do not go after reporters with those. right now, there is just a gray area. none of those national security things need to go through the normal checklist. >> i am going to take questions. somebody has a microphone over here and then over there. let's start here. ok. and then the back. if anyone has a microphone, can you ask a question? >> hi. my name is daniel. i am from germany as a journalism student. the document in the wiki case and the snowden case were both activist. the documen

the guy who first heard about the proposal for the enhanced interrogation techniques including waterboarding i was the guy who submitted those proposals to the department of justice, and i was the guy who received, was the dress -- addressee of what came to be known as the torture memos that the obama administration declassified. so that was me. so i became, suddenly, involuntarily, not only a public figure in the post-9/11 years as the activities became more and more controversial and more and more of them were leaked to the media, you know, i became in some quarters notorious. which, you know, went with the territory. the, i mean, personally, you know, to be honest one advantage it gave me, of course, is that no one, no publisher, no agent would have been interested in me writing a book about my career were it not for that notoriety. you know, i have no illusions about that. but what the attention did give me, and there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of negatives, negative attention, criticism. but, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't all negative, and point of fact be, near the end of my tim

the way we are torturing and waterboarding people and doing everything we claim we would never do.k at our black prisons all over the place. prisons where we kidnap people and put them in there and no one ever sees him again. the things we're doing in the world is around us. i am glad i am out of the military. we have nothing but a bunch of sock puppets in our government. ,ost: chris, democratic caller would you think? no, thanks. i also want to comment that i like the sure that you are wearing. host: nathan, what do you think? person ise previous crazy. we went to afghanistan because -- bombed us.e we should not negotiate at all. they killed their own prime minister. good bunch of dirty bastards. host: should we negotiate? caller: no, we should bomb them. osama was a block away from the police station. maybe we should give them some more f-16s. host: democratic caller. caller: i would like to say that i do not even know why this is an issue. respect, one of your caller said he thought the military -- diplomacy. diplomacy is the way out of this. this man should not be sitting there

the guy who first heard about the proposal for the enhanced interrogation techniques including waterboardingi was the guy who submitted those proposals to the department of justice, and i was the guy who received, was the dress -- addressee of what came to be known as the torture memos that the obama administration declassified. so that was me. so i became, suddenly, involuntarily, not only a public figure in the post-9/11 years as the activities became more and more controversial and more and more of them were leaked to the media, you know, i became in some quarters notorious. which, you know, went with the territory. the, i mean, personally, you know, to be honest one advantage it gave me, of course, is that no one, no publisher, no agent would have been interested in me writing a book about my career were it not for that notoriety. you know, i have no illusions about that. but what the attention did give me, and there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of negatives, negative attention, criticism. but, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't all negative, and point of fact be, near the end of my time