rates were about 30% to 35% lower than the reggie states utility rates, that's been because weaver insentivized the capacity. anything that makes us department from that are those utilizing those energy rates. >> and directed at you again, dr. shaw, and director butler, when administrator mccarthy was here and testified before the sfls committee back in july, she stated unequivocally that the epa's regulatory agenda rely owes on science that is accessible and transparent. do you agree that with regard to the clean power plan, the epa has promulgated this rule transparently and that all aspects of the rule, including the calculation of benefits rely upon science and data that have been publicly made available? >> i think that is a stretch and certainly we're still digging our way through the 1500 pages. so maybe we've missed it in there somewhere, congressman. but it is a challenge to understand the basis and i think part of that is because it's very difficult to quantify some of the benefits because it's difficult to quantify the benefit of a hundredth of an inch in sea level rise change. >> mr