. >> wes hutchins is the former head of the utah adoption council, and a lawyer represents almost three dozen birth fathers from across the country. all trying to get their children back. what do you think is wrong with with the adoption laws here? >> fraud is legal. he is suing the state, and challenges the constitutional city of utah's adoption statute. >> you can lie, you can misrepresent, you can deceive, and that's not a base toys overturn an otherwise illegal adoption. so a birth mother can lie, or tell the birth father the baby died. >> are the current laws here, in utah the result of influence from the lda church? >> i think utah has a long history of being profamily. and proadoption. i think there's a heavily influence from the lds church. they are entitled to be raised in two family homes. a lot of people misinterpret that, and suggest that an ends justifying the means approach. let's do what we have to to get these children adopted and into two parent homes. he says the proof of lds influence is in this letter. it states i believe the best solution to the challenge of out of

we were able to put our differences aside and get it done. ofse are major pieces legislation passed out of committee. people do not pay attention to it because that is not the headline. >> hutchins and comments? -- questions and comments? >> as i understand the exchange -- >> i'm sorry, these identify yourself to the panel. >> i am a trustee. nobody mentioned that a solution that might help would be a national exchange so that it could start out considerably smaller and yet presumably then still preserve the actuarial basis for the exchange structure. is that incorrect, and assuming is there any possibility that national enablement of the exchange is part of the solution? >> anyone? >> i don't see that happening, but ron had a good point that i wrote down about in limiting exchanges at the point at which purchase occurs. i thought that was a pretty powerful mentioned is -- a pretty powerful message. i don't see a national exchange as replacing -- there are state exchanges that some states feel are working. my home state of texas did not do in exchange. 32 states said we want no part of it. i don't see that in the near future as changing. >> are you talking about risksharing? you