and we then see examples where wildlife commerce is perhaps taken more seriously. i just gave south africa as an example where very long custodial sentences were given to individuals stealing the wildlife of south africa. i'd say it's a bit of a mixed bag in most parts of the world, with respect to the sorts of measures that are in place. one thing we have noticed is what i said before, that seizure is sometimes seen as a success. seizure is in fact a failure. that animal is dead. you've seized the contraband, but the person who wanted it is still wanting it. you know, that's why we've put in place this training and controlled deliveries and other more effective techniques in dealing with crime, whether it's wildlife crime or not, because we have to get to the perpetrators, those who actually are driving the demand. and i would say in those countries where demand is driven, they have quite strong laws. in china, for example, it used to be they had the death penalty as the highest penalty for wildlife crime. it's now life imprisonment is the highest penalty that can

wildlife in species because to live without animals for roosevelt or wildlife was to live in utter pain and a modern condition of commerce and not romance. he was a scientist, roosevelt, but got romantic excitement, really, from the wild and from seeing species in the wild. >> so here at the center the national conservation training center, fish and wildlife service, this place was paid for by the taxpayer. >> yes. >> do they know about it? >> no, that is one of the reasons i wanted you to come. mark madison -- beautiful, he saved those, and the early photograph roosevelt was very interested in travy, william l. finley, he would come to the white house and show him pictures of wild oregon, roosevelt went up to portland and met him once, and it became a movement to save the wildlife of oregon. the states particularly in the west and florida, you can't even -- you can't write about the states without seeing the impact roosevelt has had. these weren't easy things to do. when he saved the grand canyon, he went there and said don't mar the grand canyon, standing on the rim, it's for future generations you cannot improve the b

commerce? who are the bad actors in this regard? >> thank you, senator. as a general statement, we can say that the risk of detection with the wildlife crime is lower than with other crimes and the penalties associated with it are lower. the risk of incarceration is lower. that is pretty much a general statement. we have seen examples where perhaps wildlife crime is taken more serious where those serious sentences were given by stealing the while whites in south africa. it is a mixed bag with response to the sorts of measures that are in place. one thing we have noticed is what i said before, seizure is seen as a success. seizure is a failure. that animal is dead. you seized the contraband, but the person is still wanting it. that is why we put in place training for control deliveries and other more effective techniques in dealing with crime, whether it is wildlife or not, because we need to get to those who are actually driving the demand. in most countries where demand is driven, they have quite strong rules. in china, they had the death penalty as the highest penalty for a while like crime and is now life imprisonment. other states vary. in thailand, they