so william benny worked for the nsa for over three decades. charge of sort of surveillance in the soviet union and also looked a lot at east germany. so he had -- he knew what was happening in those countries. east germany as we know, from the stasi. what we had-- what he had witnessed, the dictatorships, it is a form of control. you control dissent. and you control what people can say and freedom of expression, all those kinds of thing. that when governments start to do this internally, these are forms of censorship and dleelcontrol that do threaten. that once government turns surveillance powers inward, you squash basic freedoms of a society. and then we have sort of history -- in the u.s., there are what we know where they were going in and -- people engaging in legitimate defense. you know the civil rights movement et cetera. >> the ultimate question that people are still wrestling with is whether or not edward snowden is a whistleblower whether or not he's a traitor. i raise that and want to get your take on that. i think i know where you

williams you. >> keep working on that, good morning, live look at the benny.ack up from the tolls into center city here at eighth and vine. looks like somebody is getting a police escort, into center city, talcony palmyra traffic stopped for an opening, use the betsy ross and water main break in wilmington, along route 261, has brandywine high school closed for the day. good day >> turning 34 year old today. i love him. he has great party songs. >> look who is making a surprise today. lucy noland, good to see you. >> i just didn't want to go home last night. you found me on the ding this morning, i finally woke up. >> glad you're here. >> you should be in rare form then. >> it will be a fun hour for sure. >> so you have three kids? >> i have three kids.