and then by william mckeen. he was a paint scraper first, and it was a new and exciting job for him in an era where people didn't commonly finish high school. >> while we're talking about his personal life, can either of you talk about his marriage? >> that was always a source of controversy in the movement. he was deeply loyal to kate debs. but it was pretty clear that she married him as an aspiring young grocer and congress member and not a socialist. she's often spoken in favor of socialism publicly, but not enthusiastically. many decided she would have been happier if he had not pursued that life, which also kept him on the road most of the time. debs was back in terre haute mostly to collapse upstairs and try to recover before he headed out on another campaign. she was left keeping the home fires burning in the lovely house. >> so kate spent a lot of time in the living room where we are right now in the house of terre haute, indiana. >> with down and out railroad workers knocking on the door. and hoping the

he had been friends with people in terre haute like william mckeen who owned part of the railroad that came through terre haute, who he supported when they had the best interested of terre haute in mind. it was when they brought in what mckean called and others called heavy capitalists and they were making relationships with people out east that debs started to break his ties with smaller business owners in places like terre haute and started criticizing them for their need for profit. it wasn't small business that he originally was against. it was the for-profit motive that drove the small business men to become business moguls and create conditions that caused the ludlow massacre and haymarket riot among workers who -- they didn't think any other choice but to strike. >> were there socialists all across the united states or was it a regional phenomenon? >> no, all across the united states. here in the midwest and out west, especially with the western federation of miners, they were big supporters of the socialist party. big bill haywood was a founding member of it. mostly out west, o