that is winick it's complicated, because beyond that, you get -- that is when it gets complicated, becaused that you have the regional issues. what about the syrian conflict? what about iraq and yemen? i think the nuclear pond off the chessboard is important. then we get to these nuclear -- then we get to these regional issues that will link politics and society and the internet. anchor: we have run out of time so we will have to leave our conversation there. thank you so much to all our guests. and thank you for watching. you can see this in all our previous programs any time by visiting our website. for further discussion, visit our facebook page. you can also join the conversation on twitter. from me and the whole team here, goodbye for now. ♪ woman: in the 1960s and the 1970s, there was a loosely affiliated group of artists living in los angeles who grew up working through painting and influenced by abstract expressionism, but by the mid-sixties, they were looking for ever subtler kind of effects, and so you could almost say that light was their medium. man: rather than paint and canva