winstanley?>> food you site. >> we hired the outside counsel. >> we have to hire from the outside. >> how much is that?s. >> it ranges but it is verywyer expensive. >> a lawyer by the hour?s >> so it is pretty costly? >> i imagine the nature of our business would ben th significantly more than the. >> five or 10,000? >> maybe more. >> more than that? >> ms. bogardus? most web banners or power point presentations do not include materials of the business aggregation rules. does your company's? >> we address the issue inconsistent they refer to as a brokerage firm refer our clients to their tax agent legal advisers to have a better understanding ofns many corporations are, business arrangements that requires an analysis ofons. options or documents treated for purposes other thanso addressing i business segregation so it can be extremely detailed fit. >> how do they find out? >> quite frankly there adviser? >> more than $10,000? >> if they have current legal counsel that raises the issue if they read

winstanley? >> i think that's what w that we seeing now is less people have insurance band have had insurance. the reverse affect of what we are hoping to achieve here. and i think that also in the restaurant industry specifically you hear talk about people getting 30 hours a week and that being the reaction try it around tharoundthe country and that is extremely negative for the industry. i think that's negative for the employee and long-term while some groups feel that is their only option i think in the long run that is not healthy for our economy. >> thank you. ms. baker? >> yes i do. as in my testimony, i think there's a lot of concerns with that. .. those that have the true entrepreneurial spirit to be discouraged from investing in more small businesses and expanding in other areas. that would definitely hinder. >> one more quick question and then i'll yield to ms. velasquez. kind of a yes-no. we're focused today on the complex business aggregation rules, but we're focused on other issues,

winstanley? winstanley? >> yes, sir. winstanley. >> thank you. do you have a tax specialist on your staff? >> no. not on our staff. >> so whom would you consult for guidance on the business aggregation rules? >> we would hire an outside counsel for that. we've attempted to read them ourself. but we would have to hire somebody outside. >> and how much -- how much is it to hire somebody? >> it ranges. but it's expensive. >> very expensive. i mean, lawyer by the hour, right? >> right. >> okay. and so it's pretty costly? >> yes. >> $1,000? $2,000? >> i imagine with the nature of our businesses, it'll be significantly more than that? >> are you talking 5,000? 10,000? >> maybe more. >> more than that? oh, my goodness. mr. -- or ms. bogardus. did i pronounce it right? >> yes, sir. bogardus. >> most webinars or power point presentations do not include business aggregation rules. does your company's? >> we address the issue. we consistently refer -- we're an insurance consulting and brokerage firm. we consistently refer our clients to their tax and legal

ellisxt witness is winstanley. he owns a number of businesses, including restaurants, catering company, software company, and promotional products company. welcome. collins, ranking member vasco's and the house committee on small business, thank you for the opportunity to testify today on the business aggregation rules included in the health care law on small businesses like ours. of trade logic corporation. i own it for writing small businesses in austin, texas with my twin brother and other partners. i am honored to offer the perspective of my companies as well as other restaurants on behalf of the restaurant negotiation and restaurant food service industry. i am a business executive with a successful track record of starting up, turning around, and .rowing out businesses my brother and i were entrepreneurs that got started in business when we were students at the university of texas. we were known for low rescuing local restaurant grants and turning them around as contributor to the community and job creators. w

winstanley, you mention ed - >> yes, sir. >> you mentioned the e-flex coalition that advocates for greater flexibility and options within the law. i understand that the restaurant industry has a unique makeup. what proposal does the coalition have to provide flexibility while upholding the law's goal of expanding insurance coverage i don't -- where do you see that? >> okay. i was referencing the regulation. >> i'm not familiar with about three i'm not familiar enough to speak to that. what i would like to speak to is you mentioned social security, to my generation and every generation behind us, what social security is known for his being a completely unsustainable program. i would also like to mention that we -- you and i got started with a 24 hour diner and had about ten or 12 employee and we spent all night turning it into a real business and there was nothing more we wanted them to build our business and added to it and i've been fortunate to have good advice from people over the years that have done similar things and what they have shared with me time and time again that turned out t