self-conscious of, as you call it, the white gaze -- g-a-z-e -- [laughter] because i made this mistake on wnyc last week. what? what do they have to do with it? [laughter] with racism, you're self-conscious of the white gaze. with keeping it real, you're self-conscious of the black gaze. am i getting this wrong? >> no, i think that's right. and i think, you know, i started dealing with it in high school, i think some of the people started dealing with it in high school, that responding to the white gaze is one level of maturity for a black person, right? and when you get beyond that and you say i'm not going to respond to the white gaze, i'm going to do what i want to do with my life and my per son that without -- there's no response. i am not flipping them off, i'm not appeasing them. i'm doing what i want to do. that's one level of maturity. and i think the next level of sort of intellectual development or personal development or maturity is when you say i'm not going to respond to the black gaze, that i'm going to do what i want to do. again, not flipping them off, not trying to appease my