wolfensohn? >> i cannot remember. >> this illustrates, even when you are up front, it does not necessarily work. let's go back to transparency international. i know there are areas that are working. can you share that with us? >> you have to -- let me just look at two or three countries. there could be many more. there are common things that have been happening in those countries. whether you are looking at botswana. they have had very interesting leaders from the day that they became independent. to this day, in our corruption perception index, botswana is in the top 20. out of 175-180. that means people see this country as being quite clean. look at chile. quite a lot happened in the short time. people say, is going to take a long time. i say, i am very impatient. when you look at chile, within a period of about a decade, a lot happened in terms of -- brazil is doing some interesting things. when you look at some of the bribery legislation -- the u.s. has been there a long time ago uk, eu, braz

wolfensohn? >> i cannot remember. [laughter] >> this illustrates, even when you are up front, it does not necessarily work. let's go back to transparency international. i know there are areas that are working. can you share that with us? >> you have to -- let me just look at two or three countries. there could be many more. there are common things that have been happening in those countries. whether you are looking at botswana. they have had very interesting leaders from the day that they became independent. to this day, in our corruption perception index, botswana is in the top 20. that is out of 175 or 180. that means people see this country as being quite clean. that is by comparison. look at chile. quite a lot happened in the short time. people say, is going to take a long time. i say, i am very impatient. we cannot let so many people die in order forrvive this to take a long time. when you look at chile, within about a decade, a lot happened in terms of -- brazil is doing some interesting things. when you look at

james wolfensohn? >> i cannot remember. this illustrates, even when you are up front, it does not necessarily work. let's go back to transparency international. i know there are areas that are working. can you share that with us? >> you have to -- let me just look at two or three countries. there could be many more. there are common things that have been happening in those countries. whether you are looking at botswana. they have had very interesting leaders from the day that they became independent. to this day, in our corruption perception index, but one it is the top 20. top 20.ana is in the that means people see this country as being quite clean. look at chile. quite a lot happened in the short time. , is going to take a long time. i say, i am very impatient. chile, withinat a. of about a decade, a lot happened in terms of -- brazil is doing some interesting things. when you look at some of the bribery legislation -- the u.s. has been there a long time ago some, eu, brazil will have legislation come into place. norway.

james wolfensohn, can you contribute anything else? >> the largest economy in the world will be china soon. in my experience, in terms of them joining into agreements in terms of disclosure, for example , they have been clearly absent. -- completely absent. when you talk about bidding for international contracts or anything that they are engaged in in terms of their financial arrangements, it is not clear, to put it mildly. if you have a country like china which will be the leading economy in the world, how does your program do with that? >> no one country, no matter how big, is an island. if we all work together to require that of them, i think they have to step up. they are not self-sufficient in everything. they will have to deal with others. if we succumb to their size and operate the way they operate, i think we have made the cancer a terminal one. i would like to look at this problem that has created a cancer for all of us. the good thing is, it can be treated. unlike most cancers. the other thing is, i am hopeful that as they ma

wolfensohn? >> i can't remember, actually. >> oh.ghter] >> all right, so this really illustrates, even when you are very ballsy and upfront and you call people out, it doesn't necessarily work. let's go back to transparency international, madam labelle. i know that there are some areas that are working that are perhaps not so dramatic as mr. wolfensohn's approach. can you share them with us? >> you have to -- let me just look at 2 or 3 countries. there could be many more. but there are some common things that happen happening in those countries. whether you are looking at botswana, that has had very interesting leaders from the day that they got independence. and to this day, in our corruption perception index, but juana is always in the top 20 out of 175, -- botswana is always in the top 20 of 175, 180. people in the country as well as people working outside the country see the country is quite clean by comparison. when you s -- when you look at chile, when people say it is going to take a long time, we can't wait to see so many peo

wolfensohn? do we use the microphone. >> i just congratulate jim and his colleagues on the formation of this new unit, which strikes me as being a practical and and iant step forward, wish them not only the very best of luck, but i would hope that they would tackle some of the , anddifficult cases also in publicity and in the annual meeting speech and things, not only talk about the successes but just how tough it is in so because ie countries, think a statement of all of the successes is useful, but i do think that even more useful is a statement of how prevalent the practice of corruption and inequities still is, and so i this department can report in two phases, one, what it has done, but also how much is to be done. >> minister? >> well, there is a direct correlation between poverty and and the world bank goal, if it is to reduce poverty, then they really have to make an equal amount of investment in working towards the reduction of corruption. i think this is especially important because cor