at that time under the control of yasser arafat was responsible for scores of blacks of terrorism and israelis desperately sought to find a non-violent alternative that could capture the imagination of the palestinian people. they threw their support and this is a classic case of low back out from the 1980's when we supported them and their ranks became members of the taliban and al qaeda this happened with hamas. by the time it was formed they had already had a full head of steam and enjoyed immunity from the israelis and this is one of the reasons there is a significant social and the structure that hamas enjoys today. does not only popular in the territories because of a suicide bombing operations which are popular with the palestinians by the fact have the social infrastructure has lent legitimacy for those who wish to ignore the fact they are responsible for bloodshed. >> host: i think of the israelis is being sophisticated about their neighbors progress after all 20% of israeli citizens are arabs, muslim, how could they not understand an organization that derived from the muslim

fatah, of course, at that time under the control of yasser arafat was responsible for scores of acts of terrorism around the world and the israelis desperately sought to find an alternative, a nonviolent alternative that could capture the imagination of the palestinian people. so the israelis sort of threw their support behind them and this is a classic case of blow-back that we saw of the mujahedeen and their ranks became members of the taliban and al-qaeda. this happened with hamas as well. so by the time hamas was formed in the late 1980s they had gotten a full head of steam and they enjoyed a immunity from the israeli and this is one of the reasons why there is a significant social infrastructure that hamas enjoys today. hamas is not only popular in the territories because of its suicide bombing operations which by the way are very popular among the palestinians but the fact that they have this infrastructure, this social infrastructure has lent legitimacy for those who wish to ignore the fact that they are responsible for endless acts of bloodshed. >> here's what puzzles me. i t

getting yasser arafat to shake hands, similar to me, i was at the center of 2 other things in 1995, was trying, after the disastrous election in 1994, trying to come up with a policy that would preserve affirmative action, worked on acute policy review, the president ended up giving, a precursor to a president obama's race speech, national archives in july and in that was incredibly gratifying. finally, it was the last day of 1995, 1994/1995 were difficult years, our white house was a very kayak -- very chaotic place. very schizophrenic. we were pursuing 2 different political projects at exactly the same time. what it culminated in was discovering the shutdown in 1995, and clinton sympathized the 2 camps he created in the white house. the fact that i was fighting on pretty much prevailed and it was clear in those final days of 1995 that by standing up the way we did, forcing the republicans to shutdown the government, at both preserve a lot of programs that lot of us cared about for a long time and in -- it ensured clinton's reelection in 1996. i remember walking into the oval office on

what did yasser arafat do with all the money that we sent? we sent him millions of dollars to help palestinians. what did he do with all that money? what did the palestinians do? they help themselves. they cry that israel has taken their country. i must admit that i do not like the president. i think he has a moslem art. i really do. thank you so much. guest: the caller raises a lot of points. briefly, i would say the following. where she is correct is, -- there is a difference between the arab world and the muslim world -- many of the muslim countries do not have relations. he jerked and jordan have diplomatic relations. there are some arabs to say that you have to accept israel as a fact that it exists. i think what the caller may be a learning to is the question is, how many of the arab leaders say, beyond it being a fact, is it morally legitimate? to what extent would they say that there is a right to a jewish homeland like there is a right to a palestinian homeland? i think you need to take it to the next level. both sides have legitimat

>> one of the things are argue in the book is yasser arafat for all of his failings have captured the imagination of the palestinian people here and here was this character who wore fatigues and had his black-and-white checkered a pythia in the shape of palestine and the today oldest -- and i am working around-the-clock to liberate palestine. this appeal to the palestinian people so much to the point that when he died in 2004i actually really believed that is when things began to unravel and anarchy took over the west bank and gaza because it was as if you tell this to territories together. i would argue that with him gone these two territories are separated by more than 20 miles of the desert, they are ministates of this point that may be a shame the devil to put back together. in order to bring them back together and we will need to see that a charismatic figure who comes up with a vision of the palestine is going to look like and that is one of the things i talk about in the last chapter and that is we need to see on the palestinian side for any of this to move toward we need to se

>> one of the things i argue in the book is that yasser arafat for all of his failings had captured their imagination of the palestinian people. here was this character who wear fatigues and have his black-and-white checkered keffiyeh trip over his shoulder in the shape of palestine and the pollster at his side and the today all this double and am working around-the-clock too liberal palestine -- this appeal to the palestinian people so much to the point that when he died in 2004i actually really believed that was when things began to unravel. the and i really took over in the west bank and gaza because the laws as if he held these two territories to gather here and i would argue that with him gone these two territories are separated by more than 20 miles of -- desert. they really are many states at this point that may be extremely difficult to put back together. in order to bring them back together again we will need to see the charismatic figure, the person that captures the imagination of the people that comes up with a vision of a palestine is going to look like and that is one of the