yemen does not have a cluster bombs. but for some brave photojournalist going there and photographing it initially, we probably never could have proven that it was a u.s. strike. president obama is directly responsible for the first yemeni journalist reporting on this story continuing to be in prison. he exposed the bombing and remains in prison to this day. the last line of my book is that he is in prison and should be set free. huge story that the u.s. had bombed yemen for the first time in seven years and many end up in prison on trumped up terrorism charges and was put into a court that is presently set up to prosecute journalists. and president obama called the government there and said that he did not want them to release him, so he is in prison to the state. yemen said that they conducted these airstrikes and that among the dead is the two heads of al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, and anwar al-awlaki. the first time that we know that the u.s. intended to kill al- awlaki was in december, 2009. this was before we

yemen, al qaeda and the war in arabia.gory johnson, thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> why would their government want them back. >> well, the former president, dictator of yemen, in power for more than three decade, he knew how important closing guantanamo bay was to president obama. and he played politics with it. he essentially held the prisoners ransom a second time trying to get as much from the obama administration as he possibly could. the new government, has very little domestic base of support. so what he need is a lot of international support particularly from the united states, to offset his lack of domestic support. so what he's doing is essentially being a very flexible partner willing to take these off president obama's hands. >> is he doing a good job at this diplomacy? is he asking for the right things and making his offers the right way? >> that's a very interesting point because just last week yemen's minister for human right showed up in washington thinking she was going to lobby for t

there hasn't been that same amount of trust in yemen, and the real irony is that the group in yemen, al qaeda, the group responsible for these underwear bombs, these cartridge bombs, that group has former guantanamo bay detainees in it, but they're not yemenis, they're saudis. >> why did they end up going to yemen to be operational? >> right. >> because they had room to maneuver. >> absolutely correct. >> is there anything you see in terms of the operational room to move a group like al qaeda in the arabian peninsula has there? is there any pressure from the u.s. government? will it all be imposed from outside, u.s. military efforts? >> that's a great question. right now the group is under a lot of pressure, but most of it comes from drones. most of it comes from air strikes. but the yemeni government right now, we have to remember the arab spring that overthrew president abdullah, in egypt mubarak goes to prison, and in libya he's killed. but president abdullah stepped down, and he's still a political figure. there's all this behind the scenes maneuvering between the different facti

back into yemen.hat's the difference between a concept and an actual plan. > thank you very much. >> you talked about stability in the middle east. what specifically would you like to see them do to address that? >> arm the rebels. give them a safe zone. -- on the ad's ground, lead, go back and help the libyans do what we didn't do after gaddafi fell and that's help them with border security and build -- hopefully try to assist this huge refugee problem the lebanese have. 10% of their population is refugees. can you imagine the united states of america if 10% of our population were refugees? the strain on the government, the outbreak of fighting that's going on in lebanon. it all comes down -- what would i have the united states of merge do? lead. lead. four-letter word. the president does not lead. and i get that from every single one of these leaders in the middle east no matter where i go. and that is a shame. and we sit by and watch these people massacred. and by the way, now we are relying on the

the president of yemen has been a better partner. things are getting somewhat better in yemen.cannot believe, given what i know about yemen, and senator mccain is going next week, that the conditions on the ground in yemen and three of the peoplewho attacked our embassy in benghazi came from yemen are such that it would be a good idea to release people we have held for years as terrorists back in the yemen. that is a difference between a concept and a plan. >> thank you very much. >> you talked about civilityin the middle east. [indiscernible] what would you like to see them do? >> arm the rebels, put in a safe zone, lead, go back and help the -- take out assad's air on the ground, lead, go back in to help the libyans do what we could not do after gaddafi left, to help them with their border security, etc. hopefully try to assist this new refugee problem the lebanese have. 10% of the population is already refugees.can you imagine if 10% regug --pulation were refugees? the strain on the government, outbreak of fighting going on in lebanon, it comes down -- what would happen in t

citizens in yemen and pakistan. >> simply put, the strikes have saved lives. moreover, america's actions are illegal. we were attacked on 9/11. within a week, congress overwhelmingly authorized the use of force. under domestic law and international law, the united states is at war with al qaeda. the taliban, and their associated forces. >> according to a gun to newspapers, and the speech appeared to expand those who could be targeted in drone strikes and other undisclosed legal -- legal actions. up until thursday, obama and his top aides have said drone strikes are restricted to killing confirmed "senior operational leaders of al qaeda and associated forces close >> plotting imminent violent attacks against u.s. of of treatment -- but obama dropped that wording thursday, making references at all to senior operational leaders. >> we act against terrorists who propose an imminent threat to the american people. when there are no other governments capable of of that beverly addressing the threat. >> president obama's sp

drone strikes killed four americans in yemen and pakistan.in a letter to congress, attorney general eric holder confirm the u.s. deliberately killed a militant cleric anwar al awlaki in yemen in 2011. he also acknowledged the deaths of his 16-year-old son, abdulrahman, and his elder aid samir khan in yemen as well as the death of jude kenan mohammed in pakistan. upholder suggested those strikes or accidental, saying all three were not specifically targeted. mohammed's killing had previously been unknown and of wednesday he was still on the fbi's most wanted list. holders letter was revealed on the eve of today's major counterterrorism address from president obama. the president is expected to announce a policy limiting targeted killing outside of four sons in places such as pakistan, yemen, and somalia and also expected to endorse using the same standards for attacking foreign suspects now used for targeting american citizens. the move could in the so-called signature strikes that treat foreign males and target zones as militants unless they'

anti terror efforts but america was keenly interested in yemen well before that the first u.s.drone strike to hit the country was back in two thousand and three these operations have been highly classified and the american public is only beginning to recently understand the effects of these drones and what these strikes might actually do to the public here's what we do know about drone strikes in yemen courtesy of the bureau of investigative journalism which has some of the most comprehensive data on strikes in this region between forty four and fifty four people are confirmed the strikes actually happened in yemen between two hundred thirty two and three hundred thirty three people have been killed dozens of them were civilians and two of them were children but as you can tell even the most comprehensive data still leaves a lot of questions to be answered the obama administration promised that these drone strikes were only meant to go after high level al qaeda members however as the data we just showed you proves civilians are often contant the crossfire as more of these insta

has sometimes they are in yemen and pakistan is the u.s. getting fed intelligence by the government to take out people who are not. affiliates or the like their opponents or or rivals of the government i think it's very difficult to know and i think there have been cases if you just look at yemen . where the united states has had very poor intelligence they've been very reliant on the government of yemen for these strikes and in one case there was a deputy governor of a province and yet he was killed i believe in may of two thousand and ten and is now believe that the united states was fed intelligence by this person's rivals in order to kill this person so it's this murkiness of how these wars are carried out i think that can lead to these types of situations you mentioned the u.s. is setting up new drone bases they need targets to keep them operating right could this business of killing suspected terrorists turning into a self generating them to price sort of the cia would have to come up with targets to keep them running well i think tha

basis forent, the putting boots on the ground in yemen we respectfully -- the sovereignty of yemen werespect and it would -- >> i am saying, does he have the legal authority under our law to do that? >> under domestic authority, he >> i hope the congress is ok with that. i'm ok with that. does he have authority to put boots on the ground in the congo? he does.ir, >> do you agree with me when it comes to international terrorism we're talking about a worldwide struggle? >> absolutely, sir. >> the battlefield is wherever the energy chooses -- enemy chooses to make it? >> yes, sir, from boston to the fattah. >> i could not agree with the more. >> yes, sir, i agree with the enemy decides where the battlefield is. >> and we have to be aware and able to act. do you have the ability to act when you are aware the threats? >> yes, sir, we have the ability to react and we are tracking globally. >> from my point of view, i appreciate all of your service to our country. gentlemen, i've only been here five months but this is the most astounding and astoundingly disturbingly and i've been to since i

did it go back to yemen? yes, it did.he ap got this piece that not only was there a bomb plot but the bomb was already in u.s. hand. it was at the lab in quantico. an ap ran with that story and when it did people started freaking out in the administration. how did they get this, what did they know. there was a briefing given by brennan. >> john brennan, now head of the cia. >> he was. someone who knows about yemen, counterterrorism. he went out to try to also calm some public opinion. he said, look, yes, there was this plot but the bomb has always been in our possession. it was always under our control was the specific word, which means that there was never a threat that this bomb that was being made in yemen was going to blow up an aircraft. that the u.s. or u.s. friends -- because what was under our control, it wasn't under our control. it was under the uk's control but since we're all friend in this, the u.s. and uk, it was under friendly control. >> so him saying -- i think inside control. inside control, our control,

whose it was it was a great independent journalist in yemen exposed u.s. missile strikes was interviewing anwar a lockie and al qaeda leaders we would have been a great source of information for the cia and the obama administration has him rotting away in a yemeni prison he was going to be pardoned by the president of yemen and obama personally called and intervened to make sure that the pardon was ripped up this journalist is in prison to this day and his real crime was exposing u.s. missile strikes and interviewing the people the u.s. says are terrorists so what happens i mean i've interviewed people that are attached to al qaeda does that mean that what i should be in jail you know i've been reporting on these missile strikes i mean where do we stop where is the line drawn when when journalists can be put in prison i don't believe for a minute it was richard engle who had done that stuff that he be rotting in a yemeni prison right now it's because no one cares about. he's not speaking english he's reporting in arabic much of his work no one ever hears a

more than 100 men, many of them from yemen and not considered a threat have been on a hunger strike in began mo since february to protest their detention. >> look at the current situation where we are force feeding detainees. is that who we are? >> these are encouraging signs but we need further steps. >> before the president's speech, some of the detainee's lawyers were already pressuring the defense secretary chuck hague to do more. they accuse the meant gone of violating the geneva convention by the way guantanamo treats the detainees. with this speech, the president is hoping to open a new chapter and renewed debate over how the u.s. prosecutes what it used to call the global war on terror. >> president obama also said he would lift the moratorium on transferring prisoners from guantanamo bay to yemen. >> this is his reaction to obama's announcement. >> what a a deep disappointment. we have been led to believe that the president would offer some kind of concrete plan for transferring detainees from guantanamo. all we got is the same conceptional distractions. we didn't promise to d

the president of yemen has been a better partner. things are getting somewhat better in yemen.cannot believe given what i know about yemen and senator mccain is going next week that the conditions on the ground in yemen and three of the people protect our embassy in benghazi came from yemen are such that it would be a good idea to release people we have held for years as terrorists back in the yemen. that is a difference between a concept and a plan. >> thank you very much. civilitylked about [indiscernible] what would you like to see them do? >> arm the rebels, put in a , go back andad help the libyans do what we did not do after qaddafi fell, to help them with their border security, etc. try to assist this new refugee problem the lebanese have. 10% of the population is already refugees. ,he strain on the government outbreak of fighting going on in lebanon, it comes down -- what would happen in the united states question mark lead. the president does not lead. i get this from every single leader in united states no matter where i go, and we sit by and watch these people massac

their threats from yemen and the shutdown transfers. that meant is that there are yemeni man we have had in guantanamo for eight + years, they have nothing to do with a dangerous man we believe was in yemen but we won't send them home. from twitter -- guest: no one is more deserving of human rights than anyone else. that is the structure of individual rights that the u.s. and the global community have committed to. largely since world war two. people said so many people have been killed and there has been suffering that we need a structure that recognizes the value of human life, basic standards of human dignity that apply to everyone even people accused of terrorism. host: andrea prasow, confined her work at hew.org. our phone lines are open and york -- and a few questions or comments, we are talking about not only guantanamo bay but the president's policy on drones. can you talk about what he did there? guest: it is good and bad. i think he provided more transparency, more of a clear explanation on the target killing policy than we ha

if they're sent back to yemen.nd yemen, other countries as well. >> that's correct. the vast majority of detainees down there are yemenis. about 56 of those cleared in one fashion or another to go are yemenis. and the question that we'll be looking for in the president's speech is does he in fact lift the moratorium he imposed on transfers to yemen and go back to considering on a case-by-case basis, whether yemenis cleared for release. three and four years ago. can now be allowed to be transferred to yemen again. >> and pj, you've been a press spokesman at the white house, at the pentagon. in the state department. so you know the interactions, the daily interactions between the news media and the administration on national security issues. how can the president today say that he believes in press freedoms. when this administration has been more aggressive than any of its recent predecessors in going after not just the leakers, but the reporters? >> andrea it's a very fine line, i worry about the you know, the impac

countries like pakistan, yemen and somalia. the speech comes in response to calls for greater transparency over the targeted killing program and a mid rising international condemnation of u.s. covert actions as well as outrage over the deteriorating situation at guantanamo bay. where 103 of the 166 detainees remain on a hunger strike that has lasted over two months. >> to advance his goal of closing the prison. "the wall street journal" reports that the process will begin with the transfer of some 30 nonyemeni detainees who have been cleared for release for several years, that would mark a significant step for an administration that has seen transferred slow to a standstill since president obama first took office. as part of the administration's bid at transparency, yesterday in a letter to congressional leaders, attorney general eric holder acknowledged for the first time, that the u.s. had killed four american citizens overseas. holder further admitted that only one had been targeted. killing in the 2011, killed in the 2011 d

in yemen, we are supporting security forces that have reclaimed territory from aqap. in somalia, we helped a coalition of african nations push al shabaab out of its strongholds. in mali, we are providing military aid to a french-led intervention to push back al qaeda in the maghreb, and help the people of mali reclaim their future. much of our best counter- terrorism cooperation results in the gathering and sharing of intelligence, the arrest and prosecution of terrorists. that's how a somali terrorist apprehended off the coast of yemen is now in prison in new york. that's how we worked with european allies to disrupt plots from denmark to germany to the united kingdom. that's how intelligence collected with saudi arabia helped us stop a cargo plane from being blown up over the atlantic. but despite our strong preference for the detention and prosecution of terrorists, sometimes this approach is foreclosed. al qaeda and its affiliates try to gain a foothold in some of the most distant and unforgiving places on earth. they take refuge in remote tribal regions. they hid

six went back to yemen. the sky didn't fall. there were security arrangements that the administration with the secretary of state made in consultation with host countries. those arrangements were worked out. there are dozens of people living in portugal, in france, germany. who are living there, rebuilding their lives without incident. the administration knows how to do this. it is not insurmountable. >> can i say that we sent our justice reporter, ryan riley down to guantanamo twice in the last few months and i spoke with him this afternoon. he said the conditions there are just awful. they've closed every common facility. people are isolated, people are dying or close to dying. we need to remember that as we watch a game of political hot potato here that both the administration and the congress are complicit in. i think the person i spoke to at the national security office this afternoon was frank in saying that they hadn't done enough, that the administration had not done enough to push the envelope on the waivers. they admit

boston bombing there was a drone strike in yemen. one of many but this one we have know because. the young man from the village that was tested for who in the senate a couple of days later described the it. was. interesting and relevant he said that his village which in iceland they were trying to kill somebody in his village they said the man was perfectly well because of that brand. he was. a drone strike is a terror weapon we don't talk about it but it is just imagine if you're walking down the street and you don't know whether in five minutes. there's going to be a explosion across the street. from some place where this guy that you can't see and. somebody will be killed and whoever else is around will be killed and maybe you'll be you'll be injured if you're there that just as a terror weapon it terrorizes. religious regions huge areas affects them that most massive terror campaign going on long and what happened in the village is that according to the testimony senate testimony that he said that the jihadi had been trying for years to turn the villagers against the american

they are going down in yemen.ms like the same time he's justifying the policy, strategically they are moving away from the policy. >> this is a combination of responding to criticism and learning lessons how the program evolved so far, and also running out of targets. there just aren't as many senior leaders to go after. last year when the u.s. was helping the yemen government reassert control over the center part of the country, they partnered with the local military and this was part of the plan. >> thank you, really appreciate it. >> thank you. >>> that is all in for this evening. the rachel maddows show starts now. >> good evening, chris, thank you my friend. >>> thanks to you at home for joining us. in august 1996 a man not a religious official of any kind, a man who had no authority to do it, decided that he nevertheless would issue a holey order, that man's name was ocsama bin laden and he called it a decoration of war against the americans occupying the land of the who holey places. the land of the two hol

are they enemies of yemen? questions that i think are being answered, but we still need to know more about it. if this really is the default way of doing business, if we don't expect to see another afghanistan anytime soon or another iraq but to see a lots yemens, pakistans, but there needs to be greater transparency and public discussion on these issues and greater accountability for how the war is being waged. that,l find it striking as a reporter, when recently i was covering the john brennan confirmation hearings when john brennan was being confirmed for cia director, that the members of the intelligence committee who are the dozen people in congress who are authorized to have the highest level of classified intelligence inside the government don't have legal memos that are underpinning the targeted. killings targeted the white house makes a point that congress is not entitled to them. congress believes they are. as an outsider, it is striking to me that the members of the intelligence committee that was fo

there was a drone strike in yemen. one of many but this one will happen because the young man from the village that was hit testified before the senate a couple of days later and described and right at the same time and that what he said is. interesting and relevant he said that his village which nicely they were trying to kill somebody in his village they said the man was perfectly well and i could have that brand. he was. a drone strike his terror weapon we don't talk about it but it is just imagine if you're walking down the street and you don't know whether in five minutes. there's going to be a explosion of the street. from some place in the sky that you can't see and. somebody will be killed and whoever else is around will be killed and maybe you'll maybe you'll be injured if you're there that's just this terror weapon it terrorizes. villages regions huge areas effects the met most massive terror campaign going on long. and what happened in the village is that according to the testimony senator just a money that

yemen and in somalia and mali. we have to continue to worry about al qaeda being able to establish a foothold in one of these countries. and, therefore, establishing a base from which to attack the united states or europe. >> former cia counterterrorism chief robert grenier says north africa isn't a concern. immediately. when you look at north africa, do you think this is the next place to worry about, or do you think that's a largely a local struggle? >> it's a local struggle and we need to be somewhat concerned about it but i think we have to be very careful, lest we nationalize a local security concern. >> how dangerous are those franchise operations we think of mali and we think of somalia? >> i think we have to be very careful because in all of these geographies that you mentioned, yes, there are a small number of international terrorists properly so-called and people that we do have to worry about. but for the most part, the people that occupy this ungoverned space are local people and have their own local co

in yemen, we are supporting security forces that have reclaimed territory frr from aqap. in somalia, we helped a coalition of forces push them out of its strongholds. in mali, we are providing aid to push back al qaeda and help the people of mali reclaim their future. much of our best counter terrorism information is from the gatherering of the intelligence and prosecution of terrorists. that's how a somali terrorist apprehended off the coast of yemen is now in a prison in new york. that's how we worked with european allies to disrupt plots from denmark to germany to the united kingdom. that's how intelligence collect with saudi arabia help us stop a cargo plane from being blown up over the atlantic. these partnerships work. but despite our strong preference for the detection and prosecution of terrorists, sometimes this approach is foreclosed. al qaeda and its affiliates try to gain foothold in some of the most unforgiving places on earth. they take refuge in remote tribal regions. they hide in caves and walled compounds. they train in empty deserts and rugged mountains.

hurt you i can't tell you the number of people that i've met abbie when i've gone to afghanistan or yemen or somalia who said you know we had a positive view of the united states but then when this night raid happened that killed my wife or this drone strike happened that way out forty six people in this village i did. sided that i'm against you i had one guy in afghanistan whose family were not even posh to him they're fighting against the taliban one of them was a senior police commander after a night raid he said i want to put on a suicide vest and blow myself up among the americans i want jihad against the americans this is these are very real stories and you know for me it was really all brought to a head with the boston bombing happened and we're watching the hunt for the support of the suspects in the bombing at the very bottom of the screen and i might be microscopic you know lettering twenty seven people killed in a baghdad bombing of a cafe i mean that's a lot about our media culture that it's like an afterthought of history we destroyed iraq we created this sort of hell scape t

they are going down in yemen.ms like the same time he's justifying the policy, strategically they are moving away from the policy. >> this is a combination of responding to criticism and learning lessons how the program evolved so far, and also running out of targets. there just aren't as many senior leaders to go after. last year when the u.s. was helping the yemen government reassert control over the center part of the country, they partnered with the local military

boston bombing there was a drone strike in yemen. one of many but this one we have to know because the young man from the village that was hit testified before the senate a couple of days later and described and right at the same time and what he said is . interesting. relevant he said that his village which nicely they were trying to kill somebody in his village they said the man was perfectly well and i could pretend that what he was. a drone strike is a terror weapon we don't talk about it but it is just imagine if you're walking down the street and you don't know whether in five minutes. there's going to be a explosion across the street. from some place in the sky that you can't see and. somebody will be killed and whoever else is around will be killed and maybe you'll be you'll be injured if you're there. just as a terror weapon terrorizes. alleges regions huge areas effects the met most massive terror campaign going on long. and what happened in the village is that according to the testimony senate testimony that he said that t

of the victims i believe we should apply that same standard to people in yemen or pakistan if we knew the names of the victims of the bombing twelve fourteen women twenty one children killed in a strike authorized by obama or any number of drone strikes then i think people would have to face them not as statistics or suspected militants but as the human beings that they are or were and until we empathize with other people and break down our sort of nationalistic perspective on the world and sort of take everyone as one part of the human family then you know we're just going to keep doing these things and it's very easy to to dehumanize the enemy and then justify anything you want to do to them which is why these perpetual wars are perpetual in your book you write about how the clandestine operations have evolved then your talk about iran contra the bay of pigs passionately supported by cheney and rumsfeld they did not regard the operation itself as a scandal but rather as a model for how the u.s. should conduct these wars and take it as a framework how has the u.s. government taken wh

policy whether somalia or yemen or syria or wherever else i think all of that we need to take stock of that we can't just expect that we. blameless. the alleged motive of the bear striking similarities to those described by boston bombing suspect knives and to discuss the legitimacy of drawing parallels between the two attacks which happened a month apart on opposite sides of the atlantic is. why they re necessarily the way well what we have to understand one thing that these two attacks actually do bear some very interesting similarities of course first of all these are both heinous attacks committed against innocent people but the goal that seems at least what the perpetrators the criminals have presented to us is that they are trying to make a point and the point is they are this is a sort of retribution for what they call crimes against muslims committed by the u.k. or the u.s. government abroad now if you look at their messages they're very very similar the question is where did they come up with the idea for such for such events to unfold what gave them the idea well it looks lik

lift the moratorium on transfers to yemen. use the existing power under statutory law to transfer people who can be transferred. these are all very important things, and they are not the ultimate step. the ultimate step is releasing people from guantanamo. but these are necessary steps toward that end. so on guantanamo, i think there have been some positive developments. we have to see how they play out. on targeted killing i think it's more complicated. targeted killing, the administration has said that it's narrowing the authority to carry out strikes. to the extent that's true, that's obviously a welcome development. the administration is still claiming the authority to carry out strikes away from actual battlefields. it's claiming the authority to carry out strikes against people who don't present truly imminent threats. so, so it's a strange situation where you have the rhetoric of peace but the reality of war. and, you know, which maybe there will be some convergence there. maybe eventually the reality will catch up with